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ADVBikes Terms of Service... Um. What?

Xeraux

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Couldn't help but notice in the terms of service that anything we post/publish is irrevocably property of the site's owner including things like ride reports, photos, etc. including his right to edit and sell them.

Really? You want people to post their ride reports so you can publish them or use them for ads and make money off their work?

Screen Shot 2022-02-09 at 7.48.49 PM.png


Um... What?

So... If I take a good photo and upload it here, they have the right to reproduce and sell it forever and ever and not pay me shit?

(Also couldn't help but notice you can't copy and paste the TOS.)
 
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Austin

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Couldn't help but notice in the terms of service that anything we post/publish is irrevocably property of the site's owner including things like ride reports, photos, etc. including his right to edit and sell them.

Really? You want people to post their ride reports so you can publish them or use them for ads and make money off their work?

Screen Shot 2022-02-09 at 7.48.49 PM.png


Um... What?

So... If I take a good photo and upload it here, they have the right to reproduce and sell it forever and ever and not pay me shit?

(Also couldn't help but notice you can't copy and paste the TOS.)

It was bought up in the Welcome thread but I'm happy to discuss it more.

The ToS comes from a 3rd party service called Termly. You can read all about them at the link but they provide that live document to protect the site from international laws (GDPR, CCPA, ePrivacy). After learning about what ADVbikes.com does and where it operates they generate that document. I don't think you find a forum or blog or anything that doesn't have something similar. I believe a portion of that is added to protect the site when people use the 'Share' links at the bottom of pages. This keeps us from getting in trouble when a member shares a topic you started to FB, Reddit, or via email. I'd have to play with all the Q&A to see what questions trigger what portions of the paragraphs.

On irate4x4 I wrote some code that works with FB and IG's API to create posts on the sites behalf. Goal is to let the FB world see if an get them to the forums. You can see it on irate4x4's FB account.

I also talked about some posts and member's projects on a podcast that interviewed me about irate4x4.

I really have no intentions of doing anything but using stuff posted to drive traffic here.

Further down in that section it states that we don't claim any ownership to your contributions.
 

Austin

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I hit post too soon ....

As far as not being able to copy/paste those I never noticed that. If you watch the page as it loads Termly generates the document on the fly. The copy/paste thing is noting I set.
 

Xeraux

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I really have no intentions of doing anything but using stuff posted to drive traffic here.

Further down in that section it states that we don't claim any ownership to your contributions.

Seems to me that it doesn't matter if I still "own" my contributions if by my simply participating in this forum gives you the "right" to do whatever you please with my material. Just because I give someone a ride in my car doesn't mean I consent to giving them the right to take my car anytime they please in perpetuity after I drop them off.

It also seems pretty opportunistic and sketchy.
 

Yinzer Moto

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Seems to me that it doesn't matter if I still "own" my contributions if by my simply participating in this forum gives you the "right" to do whatever you please with my material. Just because I give someone a ride in my car doesn't mean I consent to giving them the right to take my car anytime they please in perpetuity after I drop them off.

It also seems pretty opportunistic and sketchy.

As he mentioned, is it pretty standard for any site. Really, if you post anything online, it can get ripped off.

RTWpaul watermarked his photos for a long time, he tried to keep them for himsel but he said it was impossible and they were getting ripped off. So he gave up.
 

Xeraux

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As he mentioned, is it pretty standard for any site. Really, if you post anything online, it can get ripped off.

RTWpaul watermarked his photos for a long time, he tried to keep them for himsel but he said it was impossible and they were getting ripped off. So he gave up.
Ah. I should sign over any rights I have to my materials and work because someone’s going to rip it off, anyway. :thumb
 

Austin

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Ah. I should sign over any rights I have to my materials and work because someone’s going to rip it off, anyway. :thumb
I think he meant it's more common that you think.

Here are a few examples of various places ToS in relation to contribution licensing

FB:
Specifically, when you share, post, or upload content that is covered by intellectual property rights on or in connection with our Products, you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, and worldwide license to host, use, distribute, modify, run, copy, publicly perform or display, translate, and create derivative works of your content (consistent with your privacy and application settings). This means, for example, that if you share a photo on Facebook, you give us permission to store, copy, and share it with others (again, consistent with your settings) such as Meta Products or service providers that support those products and services. This license will end when your content is deleted from our systems.

Reddit:
When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.

Amazon:
If you do post content or submit material, and unless we indicate otherwise, you grant Amazon a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, perform, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, and display such content throughout the world in any media. You grant Amazon and sublicensees the right to use the name that you submit in connection with such content, if they choose. You represent and warrant that you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the content that you post; that the content is accurate; that use of the content you supply does not violate this policy and will not cause injury to any person or entity; and that you will indemnify Amazon for all claims resulting from content you supply. Amazon has the right but not the obligation to monitor and edit or remove any activity or content. Amazon takes no responsibility and assumes no liability for any content posted by you or any third party.

ADVrider pre VS:
You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.

VS's template, so every VS owned forum:
You agree to grant to ADVRIDER.COM a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information you submit to any public areas, chat rooms, bulletin boards, newsgroups or forums of ADVRIDER.COM or which you provide by email or any other means to ADVRIDER.COM and in any media now known or hereafter developed. Further, you grant to ADVRIDER.COM the right to use your name and or user name in connection with the submitted materials and other information as well as in connection with all advertising, marketing and promotional material related thereto, together with use on any other VerticalScope Inc. web sites. You agree that you shall have no recourse against VerticalScope Inc. for any alleged or actual infringement or misappropriation of any proprietary right in your communications to ADVRIDER.COM.

Aside from things like users sharing posts to social media, it's also necessary for everyday things like RSS feeds. We won't have them here but every forum on ADVrider has a feed that somebody could use to read the site. Without stupid legal jargon like above the site leaves it self open to a lawsuit by disgruntled member saying you shared my original work without permission.

They all sound like they have dubious intentions (some even may), but unfortunately it's become really standard stuff in this day and age.
 

woods

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I wonder how many of the folks complaining about a TOS have a Facebook, Twitter, or whatever account. nevermind a smartphone or an RFID tag on their vehicle.
 

Xeraux

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I wonder how many of the folks complaining about a TOS have a Facebook, Twitter, or whatever account. nevermind a smartphone or an RFID tag on their vehicle.

What's that got to do with someone here monetizing a ride report someone's worked on and wanted to share with other riders? Because Facebook says they own all your pictures, that means it's okay? With Facebook, Twitter, et al, you kinda know what you're getting into. If people don't, then they need this reminder. At ADVbikes.com, it's a little more murky and I think some might post things in good faith that they otherwise wouldn't had they known that once they do, it's "irrevocably" not theirs anymore. Over on ADV, we were pretty confident that wasn't going on because we grew up as the site did and there was an unwritten respect for that kind of labor. Ride Reports were often referred to as the "crown jewel" of ADV. But here? Fuck if I know. :dunno This ain't AdventureRider. The operators of this site might have simply thrown this site up to put together and sell a coffee table book of ride reports that they now "own".
 

Yinzer Moto

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What's that got to do with someone here monetizing a ride report someone's worked on and wanted to share with other riders? Because Facebook says they own all your pictures, that means it's okay? With Facebook, Twitter, et al, you kinda know what you're getting into. If people don't, then they need this reminder. At ADVbikes.com, it's a little more murky and I think some might post things in good faith that they otherwise wouldn't had they known that once they do, it's "irrevocably" not theirs anymore. Over on ADV, we were pretty confident that wasn't going on because we grew up as the site did and there was an unwritten respect for that kind of labor. Ride Reports were often referred to as the "crown jewel" of ADV. But here? Fuck if I know. :dunno This ain't AdventureRider. The operators of this site might have simply thrown this site up to put together and sell a coffee table book of ride reports that they now "own".

What is keeping anyone from copying a ride report from ADVr and making a book out of it? Especially after the second owners took over. Now it is onto the third ownership. Honest question, it sounds like you make a living with your writing and photos, I am just some dude who rides motorcycles and plays on the internet too much.
 

Xeraux

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What is keeping anyone from copying a ride report from ADVr and making a book out of it? Especially after the second owners took over. Now it is onto the third ownership. Honest question, it sounds like you make a living with your writing and photos, I am just some dude who rides motorcycles and plays on the internet too much.
Sure, anyone, anywhere can steal content, but that doesn't make it okay for them to do it over there (or anywhere) and it doesn't mean it's okay to do it here, either.
 

Yinzer Moto

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Sure, anyone, anywhere can steal content, but that doesn't make it okay for them to do it over there (or anywhere) and it doesn't mean it's okay to do it here, either.

Austin’s business is not in sealing data from users of his forums. He has interest in people here being happy with this place. If he takes photos/ride reports and sells them, that would be like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It really would not end well. I dont have any concerns with any forum owner taking my content and trying to turn it into any type of product, even Vertical Scope. What you are accusing Austin of would be akin of you accusing you car mechanic of running an Uber business in your car, while it is in the shop.
 

Austin

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I would think you would know what your getting into posting on a forum, or any website these days, as well. That ToS isn’t there so I can make a coffee table book. Lol. It’s there to protect the site and the community that uses this place.

Access to the ToS is on every single page and it was one of the first things addressed by one of the first members. That question and my reply are in the Welcome message I shared and put a notice to new members to call attention to it. There is certainly no attempt to hide the ToS.

You’ve signed up and started a second topic about this under the first while contributing nothing else. I get the feeling your targeting me as the FNG. I get it. If you have any doubts about my intentions you’re welcome to sign up on irate4x4.com and discuss how I manage that site for that group. :beer
 

ZoomerP

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What's that got to do with someone here monetizing a ride report someone's worked on and wanted to share with other riders? Because Facebook says they own all your pictures, that means it's okay? With Facebook, Twitter, et al, you kinda know what you're getting into. If people don't, then they need this reminder. At ADVbikes.com, it's a little more murky and I think some might post things in good faith that they otherwise wouldn't had they known that once they do, it's "irrevocably" not theirs anymore. Over on ADV, we were pretty confident that wasn't going on because we grew up as the site did and there was an unwritten respect for that kind of labor. Ride Reports were often referred to as the "crown jewel" of ADV. But here? Fuck if I know. :dunno This ain't AdventureRider. The operators of this site might have simply thrown this site up to put together and sell a coffee table book of ride reports that they now "own".

I believe there's some truth in that. As Austin said, the ToS here are boilerplate for forums and the like today, and they've been hammered out by legal decisions, contract law, etc. Whether we like it or not, nothing in the ADVbikes ToS appears out of step with the industry, and by using a service to maintain the ToS, he's wisely working under best practices.

Sure, anyone, anywhere can steal content, but that doesn't make it okay for them to do it over there (or anywhere) and it doesn't mean it's okay to do it here, either.
True. Theft isn't occurring by ADVbikes, though.

I'm not an attorney and I'll defer to Austin on this, but I believe the ToS pertains to issues of use much more than ownership. As was mentioned, online media is so interconnected that issues of use must be addressed as they have been unless someone devises a more workable method to address use & ownership of content. Legally, it really is complicated, and it can't be approached as simply as me giving someone a hardcopy photo album.

In this instance, the best guidance I can give someone considering where they'd like to post is to compare the history of the site owners, as I did before joining here. After looking into Austin and VerticalScope, it was easy for me to decide. If that assessment changes, so will my opinion.
 

Grreatdog

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At least the TOS here says I still own my stuff even if posting it here grants the site a license to use it. The license aspect is kind of a DUH to me. I have seen it enough everywhere else to not freak.

After all, I'm uploading stuff to somebody's Internet site. Once there, anybody can copy it. I have no illusions about that. The site owner has to protect himself from me getting pissy about not protecting my masterpiece after finding my photo uploaded here being used somewhere else by somebody else without my permission.

I kind of get that because my Facebook profile photo of myself on a bike is one somebody else uploaded to ADVr that I .... um ..... borrowed for a while.

But, as I said, the TOS says in small words even an old dumb redneck can understand that the site isn't claiming ownership of my faded Instamatic photos of long dead bikes. So I'm as cool with that as anything else I do in this scary online universe.
 
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