Dancingweasel
Active member
What models do Honda make in China and sell as Hondas ?
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Chinese made bikes
- Thread starter RowBust
- Start date
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
They pulled production from China in 2017, and it retuned to Japan, but I'm sure they are still sourcing motorcycle parts from China like most manufacturers. The new SuperCub is also being made in Thailand. The region has a healthy market for motorcycles, and Thailand would have relatively low manufacturing cost's, so I would have to assume it's a smart business move by Honda. The bike would obviously be exported elsewhere, and all the Honda's I've seen made in Thailand were as good as anything I've seen in Japan.
Honda repatriating popular motorbike production from China
Designed by the company's founder, Super Cub has sold almost 100 million units to date
asia.nikkei.com
Honda Motorcycle Thailand - Wikipedia
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My Thai manufactured Honda Rally is as good as anything made in Japan, with 40000km on it and never missed a beatThey pulled production from China in 2017, and it retuned to Japan, but I'm sure they are still sourcing motorcycle parts from China like most manufacturers. The new SuperCub is also being made in Thailand. The region has a healthy market for motorcycles, and Thailand would have relatively low manufacturing cost's, so I would have to assume it's a smart business move by Honda. The bike would obviously be exported elsewhere, and all the Honda's I've seen made in Thailand were as good as anything I've seen in Japan.
Honda repatriating popular motorbike production from China
Designed by the company's founder, Super Cub has sold almost 100 million units to date
Honda Motorcycle Thailand - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
Great bike.
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
I thought it was Thailand, but the wiki page says production ceased in Thailand in 2013, and it's produced in Italy, Vietnam, and Indonesia.
en.wikipedia.org
Honda PCX - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
TexasAggie
Well-known member
The BMW F800GS I had in China was made in Thailand. Thailand has an agreement with China and exports motorcycles into China with a much smaller tax on them. Honda also imports a few of their bikes from Thailand into China. My 2015 BMW 800GS was about US$18600 new purchased in Shanghai. While that was more expensive than same bike purchased in the USA, it was reasonable since it came from Thailand. As a reference to get an idea of difference in tax from Thailand import versus EU import, a 2015 BMW 1200GS which had to import into China from Germany was around US$59,600 after the import taxes...... Harleys were actually not hit as hard with the tax as BMW etc but still a premium tax over something from Thailand. The quality from Thailand was awesome........and for real shits and giggles to ponder, there was a waiting line for those US$60,000 1200GS motorcycles! The Shanghai dealer made you wait for delivery after they received shipments so he could have a few bikes in the showroom....I never could justify that kind of money for a 1200GS but when the Thailand deal worked out for the F800GS, I was all over it immediately. FWIW, it was an awesome ride and after I left I sold it for more than a new one costs here Dallas now. Worked out fineThey pulled production from China in 2017, and it retuned to Japan, but I'm sure they are still sourcing motorcycle parts from China like most manufacturers. The new SuperCub is also being made in Thailand. The region has a healthy market for motorcycles, and Thailand would have relatively low manufacturing cost's, so I would have to assume it's a smart business move by Honda. The bike would obviously be exported elsewhere, and all the Honda's I've seen made in Thailand were as good as anything I've seen in Japan.
Honda repatriating popular motorbike production from China
Designed by the company's founder, Super Cub has sold almost 100 million units to date
Honda Motorcycle Thailand - Wikipedia
matty
Border raider.
No and the WK bikes 650 is not a pit bike, its a poor Kawasaki 650 type thing, and simply did not cut the mustard when they tried to make it work effectively in the lightweight class of the IOM TT a few years back.
Garry johnson rode it and IIRC it broke down.
If you read my post , remember i did say china could make Good engines the KTM china sourced motor might well be a top engine, after all the CNC gear turning out the parts is probably the exact same spec or even the same Brand perhaps that turns out an equivalent japanese or euro made engine. A programmer / opperator culd be chinese japanese or hairy knees the Machine knows no difference. But refering back to my post, Once we start going up the quality ladder in china production, the cost will rise also. Its at this point manufacturers around the world need to fathom just how important the cheap chinese workforce features in their pricing and thus marketing, when compared with equivalent Japanese or euro made engines.
Many manufacturers use Engines made in other parts of the world, the Ford rangers 5 cylinder by example is turk made, the ubiquitous in europe Isuzu derived turbo diesel 1.7 CDTI used in many opel and vauxhall cars is Made by isuzu in poland. Its not a rare thing, and it might or might make sense for any given manufacturer to source engines in such a way from all parts of the globe at sometime or other and far a multitude of reasons not all or them purely economic.
That outlined i am still firmly of the opinion that inline with the OPs Question, China are Generally Not quite there yet, and certainly not across the board, lets face it Historically not all Japanese engines have been rip roaring successes have they /. so why should we expect china production to be any better.
I will leave this thought with those who experienced the early japs, and went on laterly to encounter the china bikes generally , I feel the japs back in the day got the quality there in a much better way than the Chinese have in an equivalent timescale.
China bikes have been here 20 years , so in the historic scheme of things re the japs from the early 60s lets say its now like the 80s/ mid 80s re the jap bikes.The Japs had progressed considerably just think back, i dont see any such advancement in the quality in the current china production general.
This is kind of had to compare i acept that, then was then and now is now, the markets around the world are different. But still of the opinion myself they will need another decade perhaps. that is of course if they ever do bother as in need to up their game.
matty
Border raider.
I have not myself used a china bike lifan or others as a daily comuter as such. But My kids had a couple of ATVs and a few lads at work used to run honda cg125 copies like the zonchen and lifans , and my experiences of the ATV wiring and china s generic electrics in general were bad, and i come from 70s Ducati / morini electrics remember, so i know what nasty is, and trust me the italian wiring was awesome compared to chinas attempts.
Mechanical my experience of the CG125 clone motors themselves in the small ATVs was fairly positive, but how they would hold up on road big miles i have no idea.
I have a Lifan king 125 cruiser from 2015, i was given it and it had been sat outside two years, and that bikes electrics were in a shocking(Excuse the pun) State, I got it running and its a water cooled single and seems to work ok, but everything about it is cheap and tacky, it acctualy looks the part of the mini cruiser bike but in reality the trim and detailing are super horrible, the fake chromey bits are so weak fragile and tacky its not funny.
Lifan would have been better building a minimal bare bobber style bike and stop trying to churn out a glitzy cruiser for low £.
The 125 Lifan kings rear shockers for example are a joke, weaker than weak and the front suspension is no better but at least strong enough for task in spring rate, but the damping is woefully inadequate. My point here is that Who expected this to pass muster? It must be a nightmare for the chinese bike dealers to live with day in day out.
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
There is a PCX forum. There's always a forum…Wiki also says Supercub is still made in China, but you say they pulled it in 2017. I guess Wiki can be wrong.
Honda Super Cub - Wikipedia
You should take a closer look at the bikes out there now. My CFMOTO 800 MT is top shelf quality and performance equivalent or even better than the Japanese bikes. KTM and CFMOTO are in a joint venture with CFMOTO owning 51% they have just signed an agreement to make 50000 bikes a year for KTM
Amos Malone
Well-known member
In my experience any manufacturing country can have bad products. I've had bad products from China. I've also had some (actually a lot of) great products from China. Xiaomi, for example, is Chinese manufacturer that makes high quality products.
Let's mention cars. Germany is generally considered high quality car manufacturing country. Yet BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz are some of the most unreliable cars you can buy while being some of the most expensive to maintain. Not so long ago you would not buy US made cars unless you lived there. The materials used were lowest (barely) acceptable quality, assembly was questionable at best and mileage was horrible. Which has resulted in very few US made cars from the 80s and 90s being roadworthy today. UK cars used to be something to avoid. The jokers said that Lucas (which made electric systems for most UK cars) invented the darkness. That the intermittent windscreen wipers were unintentional. And so on. There were constant strikes in UK car factories and the workers didn't care how low the quality was. The rust issues they had are still barely believable. Italian cars. FIAT was said to stand for Fix It Again Tony. Alfa Romeo was said to be the true drivers cars, the 10% of the time the engine started. At the same time in those countries there were some manufacturers that were making extremely well made and reliable cars. I believe the same stands for China today, so I feel it's not fair to say that all Chinese products are crap. There are some really good products coming from there. There are other countries that in my opinion are more deserving of having the reputation of making low quality products.
It's a rare product that can be said to have all materials coming from one country and being assembled in the same country. Xiaomi (again) considers itself a global manufacturer that happens to be headquartered in China.
Today I try to avoid some products from China for humanitarian reasons, but that is another thing altogether.
If governments were only half as compassionate, friendly, and generous as they people they supposedly represent...it always seems those who have the least are the most willing to share with a stranger.
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
I've lived in China, and I'm a bit of a China watcher, and have had these conversations more than I can count, and frankly tired of the subject, but I'll just add, China has a lot of internal issues that will more likely force the collapse of the CCP, before anyone buying a Chinese made product. Start doing some research, here are a couple of items I found, below. Has anyone been monitoring the COVID-19 lockdown? It's been a total shitshow, that's how big scary China really operates. Corrupt and largely incompetent. Having said that, a country unravelling can be dangerous. Desperate leadership can do desperate things, as a diversion or what have you?
www.forbes.com
Here’s How China Could Defeat Itself
The U. S. military increasingly has one overriding preoccupation: Defeating China. But what if China defeats itself?
www.forbes.com
TexasAggie
Well-known member
Where did you live during your time in the middle kingdom? I lived in Nanjing with a second home west of Yixing in the mountains there. I lost count of all the places I went but by and large enjoyed the people everywhere I went. Your post clearly shows a bit of first hand experience. It is good to see people speak from first hand experience.......I've lived in China, and I'm a bit of a China watcher, and have had these conversations more than I can count, and frankly tired of the subject, but I'll just add, China has a lot of internal issues that will more likely force the collapse of the CCP, before anyone buying a Chinese made product. Start doing some research, here are a couple of items I found, below. Has anyone been monitoring the COVID-19 lockdown? It's been a total shitshow, that's how big scary China really operates. Corrupt and largely incompetent. Having said that, a country unravelling can be dangerous. Desperate leadership can do desperate things, as a diversion or what have you?
Here’s How China Could Defeat Itself
The U. S. military increasingly has one overriding preoccupation: Defeating China. But what if China defeats itself?
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
In Beijing and Shanghai, I wasn't a hardy enough individual to stray too far from the more cosmopolitan Chinese cities. I loved Shanghai, despite all the issues the city has with air pollution or general chaos and I only left Beijing because it was boring, I did actually find it quite charming. I do feel sorry for those who can't leave. I honestly believe China's future isn't as bright as many mistakenly believe. The CCP has to get out of the way or get thrown out of the way. That brand of “soft totalitarianism” is no longer working for growth, and the CCP is slowly suffocating the country to death.
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Wintersdark
New member
As to the primary point of the thread:
They probably outsell many manufacturers now, or will soon, simply because China and India are such huge markets.
If you're excluding the small displacement cheap bikes and looking at North America... eeeeeh.
Right now, despite the CFMOTO 800MT fanfare above, they're just not quite there yet, in terms of performance and quality. Cheap, and still pretty good, though - this isn't me calling the higher end ones junk. Not far, though - they suffer more from lack of a dealership network and part availability than anything else, and the reality that performance has long been simply not their concern at all; focusing on smaller displacement bikes for the global market.
However, they're close, and they've been following the road the Japanese manufacturers took. Quality and reliability have been increasing in leaps and bounds, and they're definitely within spitting distance now. So long as we don't end up with economic restrictions between NA and China, I'd expect them to really explode in the next few years.
As to the whole China Bad issue... Gah, that's a mess.
I mean, saying you won't buy a Chinese bike because China Bad (and I agree, China does a lot of REALLY terrible things) while using an iPhone is extremely hypocritical. I mean, really, so much of what we use is manufactured there, so you really need to question why where the company headquarters are is what people seem to care about vs. where the money is really going. I dunno. I feel there's very good reasons to prefer to buy locally, or at least not-from-China, and there's a strong argument to be made that while it's basically impossible to wholly boycott China, you can at least make an effort to prefer other products... Taking a self-righteous stand against someone buying a Chinese bike when you're riding a bike with 50% of it's parts from China is pretty shaky ground (not making accusations against anyone here, just personal opinion).
I dunno. shrugs I'll just go with just judging the bikes based on their performance, quality, price, and support. The reality is the world and the global supply chain is so interconnected now it's almost impossible to boycott a nation like China. I don't even know how you'd go about finding what percentage of parts are Chinese in any given bike, though I'm pretty darn curious now.
They probably outsell many manufacturers now, or will soon, simply because China and India are such huge markets.
If you're excluding the small displacement cheap bikes and looking at North America... eeeeeh.
Right now, despite the CFMOTO 800MT fanfare above, they're just not quite there yet, in terms of performance and quality. Cheap, and still pretty good, though - this isn't me calling the higher end ones junk. Not far, though - they suffer more from lack of a dealership network and part availability than anything else, and the reality that performance has long been simply not their concern at all; focusing on smaller displacement bikes for the global market.
However, they're close, and they've been following the road the Japanese manufacturers took. Quality and reliability have been increasing in leaps and bounds, and they're definitely within spitting distance now. So long as we don't end up with economic restrictions between NA and China, I'd expect them to really explode in the next few years.
As to the whole China Bad issue... Gah, that's a mess.
I mean, saying you won't buy a Chinese bike because China Bad (and I agree, China does a lot of REALLY terrible things) while using an iPhone is extremely hypocritical. I mean, really, so much of what we use is manufactured there, so you really need to question why where the company headquarters are is what people seem to care about vs. where the money is really going. I dunno. I feel there's very good reasons to prefer to buy locally, or at least not-from-China, and there's a strong argument to be made that while it's basically impossible to wholly boycott China, you can at least make an effort to prefer other products... Taking a self-righteous stand against someone buying a Chinese bike when you're riding a bike with 50% of it's parts from China is pretty shaky ground (not making accusations against anyone here, just personal opinion).
I dunno. shrugs I'll just go with just judging the bikes based on their performance, quality, price, and support. The reality is the world and the global supply chain is so interconnected now it's almost impossible to boycott a nation like China. I don't even know how you'd go about finding what percentage of parts are Chinese in any given bike, though I'm pretty darn curious now.
I've got 16000km on my CFMOTO 800 MT now no problems at all, oh adjusted the chain once, the heated grips and seat are so good much to my mates embarrassment when the heated grips stopped working on his $35000 BMW
MrWellAdjusted
One Less Car
Again, I feel just need to point out that China's not the super threat that people think it is, but it has so many internal issues that there's a very good chance the CCP will bring itself down. I will no longer harp on about the subject.
I don't have any beef with CFMoto, nor do I have any loyalty to KTM or whatever Japanese brand. CFMoto is an outlier of Chinese bikes at the moment.
I remember talking to a guy who owned a CFMoto years ago. It was a Ninja 650 copy. It was incredibly heavy due to the engine cases being CAST IRON! They didn't design anything, they just built a copy of a proven design with very inexpensive materials.
Just like how they're using KTM engines to climb the ladder now, they're still not actually designing anything. Sure, top shelf quality goods are manufactured in China all the time. Usually for other companies ( KTM, Honda, etc).
A Chinese built Honda is still a Honda. A Chinese built KTM is still a KTM. That doesn't mean your run of the mill "China bike" IS going to be Honda/KTM quality. It ...CAN...be, but chances are it won't be.
If CFMoto is also using the same alloys and materials as KTM designed to be used, great. That will help CFMoto immensely.
It's like the $50 Dainese knockoff jackets on eBay. Come to find out, it's the Chinese factory Dainese hired to make their products. And the products were still top shelf Dainese products. But the $50 jackets? They're running the machines and patterns that Dainese provided them with after hours, but using cheap leather and zippers. That's a shitty thing to do and proves one's untrustworthiness.
When a Chinese company designs an entire bike, not copying other's design, then they will get the respect they deserve. Copycat bikes are forever going to be considered knockoffs, regardless of the materials used.