Downsizing, how far will you go?

[Yinzer Moto]

Back in 2001 I decided to try dual sport riding so I bought a used Yamaha XT350. It was fun riding off the pavement but what I didn't expect was how much fun it would be on the pavement. Even with 50/50 tires it worked much better in the curves than I expected. Traction was never an issue.

I passed a number of 100+ HP sportbikes in the twisties on that XT.

For a several years, we would go to Tennessee in the spring. I would always do a few laps on the Dragon. It was fun passing all of the loud pipe sport bikes on my knobbie tired DR650. I eventually decided that bike was too big. I am faster on the 250 than I was on that bike. Except for 70+ mph.

 

[woods]

Back in 2001 I decided to try dual sport riding so I bought a used Yamaha XT350. It was fun riding off the pavement but what I didn't expect was how much fun it would be on the pavement. Even with 50/50 tires it worked much better in the curves than I expected. Traction was never an issue.

I passed a number of 100+ HP sportbikes in the twisties on that XT.

Its funny you bring up something from 2001. I can get an antique OHRV plate for $50 on a bike that's 25+ years old. I'd like to do that again, but not sure if it'd be worth the time and money to get something that old up and running. I can get a new 250/300 for like $5500.

 

[MVI]

// a 450cc feels like cheating in the twisties too.

I only time I miss the 1200cc big bike, is if I have to make time on a highway or interstate.

give me back roads 99% of the time

 

[woods]

// a 450cc feels like cheating in the twisties too.

I only time I miss the 1200cc big bike, is if I have to make time on a highway or interstate.

give me back roads 99% of the time

Kind of why I'm iffy with the Harley. Anything under 35mph feels like I'm lugging the bike. It likes 50+. She like to eat.

 

[EGR]

Jason Pridmore. “There is an inverse relation between rider achievement and engine cc for our students.”

The untaken opportunity to buy a Cagiva Mito haunts me.

Decades riding Deals Gap and observing scores of newcomer regulars 100% of the actual riders who came with a literbike were on a 600 within weeks. Years ago a friend, small female who had spent childhood on a mini on FL farm sand wanted to try TN twisty asphalt. She got all the standard sportster, foot first cruiser bullcrap. I found a deal on a ninja250, told her to buy it or I’m out. She did as instructed. 😉 I rebuilt the saddle lower. We ran around our local Butler orange and red roads a month or so. Went to the Gap mid week. Led her down and back one time early morning. “On your own now. Tight right and late apexes. When you are held up do NOT even think pass.” Sure as hell that night she was sheepishly confessing disobedience, lots…

 

[klaviator]

So everyone is talking about going down to a 250 or 300. I have gone a step farther. The bike that I have ridden the most the last few years is a 150. If you think a 250 is lacking power, imagine having about a dozen less horses. I have found that having less power can be more fun on the right roads. Around town where speed limits vary from 25 to 55 I can really wring out the 150 and not worry to much about getting a ticket. Every traffic light is a full throttle drag race. I almost always beat the cars away from a light. My 150 and the 150 I owned before it have been the most fun around town bikes I have owned. I have also found them to be a blast on twisty back roads, the twistier the better.

My old Kymco Super 8 150 at Deal's Gap.

The biggest issue wasn't the lack of power, it was the lack of cornering clearance.

While many consider the dragon to be a really twisty road, it really isn't compared to many other roads out there. Here's my Kymco Like 150i on what I consider a really twisty road.

The problem with a 150 is most are just too slow to ride on faster roads without becoming a rolling road block. I choose my routes to avoid those roads or a ride a bigger bike.

 

[Yinzer Moto]

So everyone is talking about going down to a 250 or 300. I have gone a step farther. The bike that I have ridden the most the last few years is a 150. If you think a 250 is lacking power, imagine having about a dozen less horses. I have found that having less power can be more fun on the right roads. Around town where speed limits vary from 25 to 55 I can really wring out the 150 and not worry to much about getting a ticket. Every traffic light is a full throttle drag race. I almost always beat the cars away from a light. My 150 and the 150 I owned before it have been the most fun around town bikes I have owned. I have also found them to be a blast on twisty back roads, the twistier the better.

My old Kymco Super 8 150 at Deal's Gap.

The biggest issue wasn't the lack of power, it was the lack of cornering clearance.

While many consider the dragon to be a really twisty road, it really isn't compared to many other roads out there. Here's my Kymco Like 150i on what I consider a really twisty road.

The problem with a 150 is most are just too slow to ride on faster roads without becoming a rolling road block. I choose my routes to avoid those roads or a ride a bigger bike.

Yup, I have been riding a Honda Trail 125 a lot lately. The passing philosophy goes both ways. I pull to the side and let people pass, if it looks like I am holding them up. It is very rare, up to 50mph, I am usually the fastest vehicle on the road. I have driven in other countries a lot, passing is common practice there. In the US, it seems people feel empowered to try and enfore the law on their own, by blocking other people.

I took this photo while driving in Italy. Most people drive with their right wheels on the side of the road. So that others can safely pass, from either direction. Riding around Mexico is similar. People don’t care if you pass. Here in the US, I have had people try and run me off the road for passing or get extremely upset.

 

[klaviator]

One of my most fun runs through Deal's Gap was chasing a Grom and a Z125 from the overlook to the store. It was pretty much a full throttle race but the speeds never got very high. We might have gotten over 50 a few times. We were lucky that there was little traffic and the traffic we came up behind used the pull offs. I managed to snap a pic during the ride.

And another pic afterwards. The Grom in the ride is mostly hidden by my scooter.

 

[klaviator]

Yup, I have been riding a Honda Trail 125 a lot lately. The passing philosophy goes both ways. I pull to the side and let people pass, if it looks like I am holding them up. It is very rare, up to 50mph, I am usually the fastest vehicle on the road. I have driven in other countries a lot, passing is common practice there. In the US, it seems people feel empowered to try and enfore the law on their own, by blocking other people.

I took this photo while driving in Italy. Most people drive with their right wheels on the side of the road. So that others can safely pass, from either direction. Riding around Mexico is similar. People don’t care if you pass. Here in the US, I have had people try and run me off the road for passing or get extremely upset.

I used to drive a lot in Sicily and saw passing like the pic above a lot.

 

[klaviator]

Groms, Z125s and other mini motos have become very common at Deal's Gap. I talked to one guy on a Z125. He said he also had an RC51 but said the 125 was more fun at the Gap.

 

[Ken In Regina]

I have been thinking of a KLX 300, just for light DS. Always liked the little green machines !

Sounds like you're a perfect candidate for a Versys-X 300.

...ken...

 

[Ken In Regina]

Yeah, that is that 70-100mph range where they are better. As long as the car is driving in the 50mph range, I can get the 250 to pass just fine as long as I plan it a bit, that is a rider skill, if people are incapable of a little forethought, they might have trouble on the 250 bikes. On the little bikes, find the rev limiter and ride just below that. My WR250 actually rides smoother in the upper RPM.

Anyone who is incapable of a little forethought probably isn't safe on any size bike, IMO.

...ken...

 

[klaviator]

Sounds like you're a perfect candidate for a Versys-X 300.

...ken...

The Versys X is very different from a KLX300. The Versys is more of a Small Bore adventure bike, not really a dual sport.

 

[kickstandsup]

Hmmm...I think this is actually a complicated question, balancing weight/power/torque with a particular use case, rather than "size" per se.

Here in the Southwest, there is quite a bit of "straight, flat, boring and fast" before you get to the twisty bits. That's a different use case than if you live where there are only twisties, or whee everything is "close."

Making it even more complicated, I've come to the conclusion that top shelf suspension is more important/more rewarding than more power. You use good suspension every mm of every ride, which is quite unlike that additional 10 hp.

Thirdly, on the street, for me, low and mid range torque outweighs top end power b/c the low/mid range is where you spend the vast majority of your time. Especially if you like to "roll and go" rather than bang multiple downshifts every time you want to pass.

Finally, "cadence" matters a great deal to me...especially on a travel bike. I want something that "feels" relaxed if I'm going to spend all day, multiple days, on it.

As some of you have probably already read, I've personally settled on the 450 lb/100 hp/60 ft lbs as the "sweet spot" for me. The "enough" bike, that does most everything I need. And I've also settled on twins as my preferred engine design b/c of the low and mid range torque (generally) and the relaxed cadence (again, generally).

I'm very glad to see some manufacturers bring top end suspension to the middleweight class. I hope they start focusing on weight reduction as well. The BMW F900XR is a good example of a "missed opportunity" IMO...steel frame, double sided swing arm, 13 lbs heavier than the bike it replaced.

And belt drive...I have to throw that in. Simply the best street bike drive system available when designed properly. Zero maintenance, easy to replace, lasts longer than any chain. Did I mention ZERO maintenance?

 

[Ken In Regina]

I made the switch 5 years ago. I went from a BMW F650GS (the 800cc twin) to a Kawasaki Versys-X 300. I could no longer pick up the GS by myself and I was dropping it more frequently at 0-5kph. It was heavy enough that if I didn't get my foot down just right the GS was going to assume the sleeping position because I'm no longer strong enough to hold it up once it starts going over.

The Versys-X 300 came out the spring I made the decision to start looking for something smaller (2017). It was perfect timing. It was everything I like about an ADV bike like the GS only lighter and less power.

I haven't sacrificed anything, including touring. I've had it on a number of week to 10 day trips with 800+km days at 110-120kph cruising speeds. My normal riding around home is two or three day trips per week of 250-500km. Like many, I find I'm riding faster in the twisties than I ever did on bigger bikes.

The only catch with the smaller engine is that you need to learn how to use the power that it has. The 300 twin loves revs. The red line is around 12,000rpm and the rev limiter hits at about 12,500rpm (I know because I hit it on a semi regular basis when I'm in the mountains). This isn't really a "catch" for me because I've always loved revs. It took me less than an hour to adjust to how to get the most out of the 300.

Heading into my 6th season with it and still looking forward to it with a grin.

...ken...

 

[klaviator]

Hmmm...I think this is actually a complicated question, balancing weight/power/torque with a particular use case, rather than "size" per se.

Here in the Southwest, there is quite a bit of "straight, flat, boring and fast" before you get to the twisty bits. That's a different use case than if you live where there are only twisties, or whee everything is "close."

Making it even more complicated, I've come to the conclusion that top shelf suspension is more important/more rewarding than more power. You use good suspension every mm of every ride, which is quite unlike that additional 10 hp.

Thirdly, on the street, for me, low and mid range torque outweighs top end power b/c the low/mid range is where you spend the vast majority of your time. Especially if you like to "roll and go" rather than bang multiple downshifts every time you want to pass.

Finally, "cadence" matters a great deal to me...especially on a travel bike. I want something that "feels" relaxed if I'm going to spend all day, multiple days, on it.

As some of you have probably already read, I've personally settled on the 450 lb/100 hp/60 ft lbs as the "sweet spot" for me. The "enough" bike, that does most everything I need. And I've also settled on twins as my preferred engine design b/c of the low and mid range torque (generally) and the relaxed cadence (again, generally).

I'm very glad to see some manufacturers bring top end suspension to the middleweight class. I hope they start focusing on weight reduction as well. The BMW F900XR is a good example of a "missed opportunity" IMO...steel frame, double sided swing arm, 13 lbs heavier than the bike it replaced.

And belt drive...I have to throw that in. Simply the best street bike drive system available when designed properly. Zero maintenance, easy to replace, lasts longer than any chain. Did I mention ZERO maintenance?

I think you bring up a good point. The minimum practical size will vary depending on where you live and ride. Around where my parents used to live in Ohio the speed limits where so low that I thought my 150cc scooter was overkill. On the other had, there were a few times in Utah where I was wishing my Versys had more power. If I lived somewhere in the Western states I have no doubt I would be riding bigger bikes than I am now.

 

[Ken In Regina]

The Versys X is very different from a KLX300. The Versys is more of a Small Bore adventure bike, not really a dual sport.

I agree. But he said "...light DS." The Versys-X is excellent for that, plus gives you a great road bike, too. Just another option to consider, that's all.

...ken...

 

[kickstandsup]

I think you bring up a good point. The minimum practical size will vary depending on where you live and ride. Around where my parents used to live in Ohio the speed limits where so low that I thought my 150cc scooter was overkill. On the other had, there were a few times in Utah where I was wishing my Versys had more power. If I lived somewhere in the Western states I have no doubt I would be riding bigger bikes than I am now.

Yup...everything is "situational." And I need my travel bike to be able to carry a pillion comfortably, with enough in reserve. That also changes the equation a bit.

 

[klaviator]

I agree. But he said "...light DS." The Versys-X is excellent for that, plus gives you a great road bike, too. Just another option to consider, that's all.

...ken...

It would be a better road bike but less capable off road. I guess it really depends on what he meant by "light DS"

 

[klaviator]

Yup...everything is "situational." And I need my travel bike to be able to carry a pillion comfortably, with enough in reserve. That also changes the equation a bit.

It sure does. My two smallest bikes have never had a passenger on them and probably never will.