Dual Clutch Transmission...

[Captain Jim]

I stopped to fuel up on the way home from today's ride (here's the ride post: https://captnjim.blogspot.com/2022/05/they-are-out-to-get-me.html). A guy fueling across from me asked about the bike; he wasn't familiar with DCT but when I told him about it, he asked, "So, would that be good for a beginner?"

That could turn into a much longer conversation, but I told him, "I think it would be better to learn on a manual transmission bike and then move up to something with DCT, to better appreciate all it can do.

 

[Amos Malone]

Both ways have their pros and cons, but I think DCT would be great for a beginner.

 

[Captain Jim]

Both ways have their pros and cons, but I think DCT would be great for a beginner.

I get that perspective. I am old school enough to remember when people started with a small bike and moved up as their ability and budget allowed. The smallest new bike that Honda offers with DCT is the NC750X, a bike that weighs almost 500 pounds and has a 31.6" seat height. Not what I would consider great for a beginner. Considering the weight and price for DCT, along with the fact that it works best on a bike that has good low end torque, I don't think we'll see Honda put it on a smaller bike anytime soon.

I know that someone interested in learning to ride has concerns about using a clutch and shifting. The MSF classes can teach that in a couple hours. Does DCT free your mind from pulling in the clutch and down-shifting as you come to a stop? Absolutely. Making that perfect pull-away from a stop light? Yep. But, a beginner may not understand the need to be in the "right gear" for the situation if they are using the bike as "an automatic." A week ago, a woman blindly ran a stop sign as I was coming into the intersection. If I hadn't see her looking away and not paying attention, she would have hit me. If I had tried to do a fast stop, she may have gone right over me. Instead, I dropped a gear, cracked the throttle wide open, and put space between us. That could have been a bad situation for a beginner.

DCT definitely frees up that thought process about the physical aspects of shifting (not to mention it shifts better than a human and doesn't stall), but the rider still needs to control the speed and RPM so that it is best for the situation. To me, that is better learned on a smaller bike where one can get the process into muscle memory and see the immediate results between throttle and gear control.

I am for anything that gets more people riding. And we all know people who bought a Harley or a Goldwing as their first bike. That wouldn't be something I'd recommend, either. Could a beginner handle a bigger bike easier with DCT while they learn balance and control? Sure. But they could also learn easier on a Honda 250 Rebel, or a Ninja 250, or a TW200, where they can flat foot the bike and not have to struggle with the weight. Even better on a Honda PCX, if they think they truly aren't capable of learning to shift.

There is a reason the MSF courses start people out on smaller bikes.

--------
And now the "back in my day" tales: I learned on a friend's Honda 90 (the MSF didn't exist back in the 60s). My first bike after getting the license was a Honda 150... then I moved up to the "big iron" of a Honda 350... and a year later got a Triumph Bonneville 650. If I had started on that Bonneville, I may not have made it to this ripe old age. Come to think of it, I did teach my wife (who was my high school girlfriend back then) on that Triumph. But, we all know that the fairer gender has better self-control than teenage males. She never felt the need to wheelie that bike. All these decades later, she is still a more fluid rider than I tend to be. She later had her own sportbikes, Goldwing, and a Harley... all after she got more experience riding. It's a process.

 

[Captain Jim]

We rolled into the Black Hills today, getting settled in at our home base in the RV resort. Today would be the first opportunity to really run the CTX with the Dual Clutch Transmission through some seriously fun twisties.

So good, so good, so good...

If you said, "What the crowd sings during the Neil Diamond song Sweet Caroline: 'Good times never seemed so good...' " you get 15 bonus po...

captnjim.blogspot.com

After 3 months with this bike, I am convinced of what attributes DCT brings to the riding experience. Riding this bike hard in Sport Mode and regular use of the paddle (trigger) shifters to put the bike at the RPM I wanted was a delight, running through the curves today.

If you haven't ridden a bike with DCT and just go by various "reviewers" comments, you need to see for yourself what DCT can do. I was originally hoping the Honda Rebel 1100 or the NC750X would be a good fit for me, as these have the latest generation of DCT. I found the CTX to be a better ergonomic fit for me, and made the decision to do that route. This generation DCT has Drive, Sport, and Manual modes. I am impressed, especially after getting to push the bike in Sport Mode.

A couple reviews I read about DCT stated that one of the "cons" of it is: "the transmission cann't see what's coming ahead to be able to get itself in the best gear for the situation." Well, duh! Neither can a bike with a manual transmission. The rider has to use his/her best judgement to get the most out of the bike... and you do exactly that with the DCT. In Sport Mode, you can still use the paddle shifters to up or down shift on the fly. The shift is instantaneous. After a day of running this bike hard through the curves, I am even more impressed with the DCT. Today was a lot of hairpin curves, pigtail curves (more than 360º), some nice sweepers, and... entertaining riding.

For most of my day-to-day riding, I put the bike in Drive or Sport mode and just ride. Today, it was Sport mode and some additional imput with the paddle shifters. This transmission is great!

For full disclosure, I came to the CTX after 9 years of riding scooters (and 45 years of riding all kinds of motorcycles before that). I had some concerns that the CTX and the DCT might not be as much fun as riding the Vespa GTS HPE (with a CVT transmission) through these curves. This CTX is a blast! The DCT just works - no fuss, no drama.

It may be those years of riding a scooter that convinced me that the riding experience is just as much fun without the shifting. The DCT just works.

 

[Captain Jim]

Riding the CTX with DCT here in the Black Hills has been a treat - there are so many good twisty roads! I keep the bike in Sport Mode most of the time, and the shifting has been pretty darn close to how I'd be shifting a manual transmission. One anomaly I've found is in real tight curves that have a 10mph speed sign, if I use the paddle shifter to drop it to first gear as I'm coming into the curve, it wants to shift up to 2nd before I'd choose to. Nothing dangerous, just upshifts when I'd like to still hold 1st to accelerate out of the curve. Easy solution: index finger on the right hand to put the bike in Manual Mode when in the really tight twisties, then again to go back to Drive and into Sport right away. This might be 1% of the riding I am doing here, where Sport Mode with the occasional use of the paddle (trigger) shifter to drop a gear when necessary. Occasionally, when I am thinking the bike should be upshifting and I am about to use the paddle shifter, the bikes reads my mind and makes the shift. It really is impressive how the DCT reacts just the way I'd do it... most of the time.

 

[motocopter]

With my former '21 Goldwing DCT, I found it worked well; but, I pretty much used TOUR mode. In mountains manual mode worked as it prevented unwanted up-shifts. SPORT mode was fun accelerating, but in twisties, it would hold a gear and higher engine RPMs too long at times. So, TOUR mode worked best for me. Sold it with about 8,600 miles.

 

[psykown]

So I havent ridden DCT yet, but Ive put plenty of miles on the FJR1300 with the auto transmission and that wasnt a bad bike for general riding and some sporty riding. It wasn't actually an auto you still "shift" up and down but it manages the clutch all you do is tell it when to shift via paddle style shifters and a normal style shift lever. it was plenty easy to ride you just had to make sure if you were stopped and wanted to rev at that cute girl next to you that you werent actually in first saw a friend almost wheelie through a van because he forgot lol.

It did surprise me as to how well and smoothly you could rev match down shifts once you learned the timing it liked, for a sport tourer I really liked it and the little extra control you had

 

[Captain Jim]

Seeing what others are sharing here, the take-away with DCT is spending time with it to determine how best it fits in with your particular riding style. Here in the land of twisty roads, it is Sport Mode most of the time, with the occasional switch to Manual Mode. At home, with straight roads and resort living low speed limits, Drive Mode works just fine. The DCT is adaptable to the style of riding. Before spending a lot of time with it, I thought it might be me having to change my riding style to fit the bike, but it really comes down to utilizing the bike to fit the situation... pretty much like you would with any manual transmission bike. No down side I'm finding.

 

[psykown]

from talking with others the DCT especially for the Africa twin is excellent for the streets, and mediocre for the dirt

thats been almost universal. but to be fair thats been with an unknown offraode skillset

 

[Tripped1]

The only DCT bike that I ever rode was a VFR 1200...and my opinion may have been a little flavored by the terrible purpoising undersprung suspension.

Not terribly impressed.

That being said my cars are a 5spd manual and a 7sp DCT, and I can't beat the DCT, no one can to include professional racers. Just isn't what I want the car doesn't come in manual sadly (well it did 146 were built in Europe only). Which would be a thing if I was racing with it, but for a pleasure vehicle I will stick to shifting, as I enjoy the added interface with the transmission.

 

[Otis the Sasquatch]

Some have expressed a concern that slow speed maneuvering with the DCT is tougher because you can't use the friction zone of the clutch like on a manual transmission - a bit of rear brake as you use the throttle takes care of that.

rear brake is the answer. It's takes the place of using the friction zone with a manual only bike.

Be careful, brake + throttle might equal premature wear of the clutches or damage. I suggest reading the fine print in the owner's manual.

My DCT experience is in the below. TLDR version: DCT sucks for ultra-slow speed maneuvering, and the manual specifically warned against riding the brake.

w/ Eaton Fuller Ultrashift Plus with Smartshift controller.

Scenario: Slightly uphill dock, trying to ease 'er in with a nice slight bump against the stops. Not. Gonna. Happen.
Scenario: Jobsite delivery, trying to creep forward, with inches on both sides. Nope.

Lurch, lurch. Bam!

Unlike some Adult Males () I actually READ the manual.
It says not to ride the brake while giving it throttle, like you might in a slushbox. If you persist, and heat up the clutch "Clutch Abuse Protection" might kick in. An actual "feature".
So I think Mother Honda ain't warning you about how many dog-years you can remove from the clutch with brake-dragging "abuse".




Screw it. GREAT on the highway, or around town. USELESS in low speed maneuvers.

PERFECT would be manual clutch control available for 1st & reverse, then autoshift with throttle control (including downshift blip) for "floating" the shifts (no clutch shifting) like I can do in an un-syncro'd 9-13-18 -speed.

Basically it needed a Third Pedal There For When Needed.

.

 

[MVI]

I've only been to a couple of Honda sponsored events, 2016 in Gunnison Colorado, off road with the Africa Twin, and again in 2021 AT with some dual sporting Gravels.

Slow speed real off road I just hated the DCT, Maybe because it was my first time on the DCT, but even after 30 minutes I could not gel with the DCT on steep dirt downhills.

Fast forward to 2021 and Dual Sporting from moderate to Highway speeds, the DCT took a few minutes to get used to it, and I enjoyed the 3 hour DCT tour very much.

Not sure I'd go buy a DCT if I was looking for a new bike, I prefer to ride off road with a clutch a lot.

 

[Captain Jim]

Since these bikes don't have the heft of a truck, I have had no issue with low speed maneuvers. I can see where someone coming from years of off-road riding one would feel less control in that situation. Ten years ago, I would have scoffed at the thought of DCT on a motorcycle... then, a deteriorating hip moved me from a motorcycle to a series of scooters. After 9 years of scoots, I was long over needing a clutch lever and shift lever. I also thought I'd probably not have another motorcycle. But, a new titanium hip changed that - I can again throw a leg over a motorcycle... if the seat height isn't too tall.

I rode a few motorcycles in my search for the next bike, but missed the ease of the twist and go with the scooters. The DCT is kinda like the best of a scooter and a motorcycle. For me, it's actually better in the twisties by being able to downshift coming into a tight curve... I am using the brakes much less often with the DCT than with the CVT transmission on the scooters.

Bottom line: is it for every rider? Oh, hell no, and I would never suggest that. It works for me, and that has been enlightening. I appreciate the ease and the finesse... shift when the situation calls for it, twist & go for the rest. Trail braking is a thing for scooter riders, offering better control in the curves and for low speed maneuvering. Works the same with this DCT bike. I read the manual; didn't see anything where Honda cautions against trail braking for low speed maneuvers.

 

[AirbusFlieger]

How many bikes do I need? I'm not sure... There's this guy I follow who said it just right: "I know there is always another bike to be had." I think he just bought a CTX DCT too.

Caution slight hijack to respond to this post.

I've decided recently I need five bikes:

-Touring (dresser)
-ADV (80/20)
-Cruiser
-Sporty standard (think hooligan or cafe style)
-Plated dirt bike

Peace

 

[south east okie]

Caution slight hijack to respond to this post.

I've decided recently I need five bikes:

-Touring (dresser)
-ADV (80/20)
-Cruiser
-Sporty standard (think hooligan or cafe style)
-Plated dirt bike

Peace

It only takes money

Jokes aside , are you asking a question , or making a statement?

 

[AirbusFlieger]

It only takes money

Jokes aside , are you asking a question , or making a statement?

Statement. Motorcycling had gotten very segmented, and I’m too old to put up with too many compromises; like riding 1400 miles on a 600 sport bike over weekend 🤣

As to the DCT, the Africa Twin off in the front running for my next bike. I’m interested in owner feedback on the DCT.

 

[south east okie]

You know you can start a thread,right?

 

[Minimac]

I'll have to try the NC750DCT. Riding my old Suzuki 650 Executive in manual mode on the Back of the Dragon was great fun. Too bad that bike self destructed the high dollar trans in less than 30K miles, and I swore off any Suzuki.

 

[Captain Jim]

Just over 6 months of ownership with a Honda DCT bike (CTX700 DCT); the last 3 months have been in the Black Hills (western South Dakota) where I have been riding nearly every day on these great roads (Iron Mountain Road, Needles Highway, Spearfish Canyon, Boulder Canyon, Custer State Park - all those great riding roads you may have heard of). I have given the DCT a real workout and I have to say I am even more impressed now. Sport Mode shifts where I would about 90% of the time, and the other 10% (maybe more with downshifting for engine braking) I use the paddle shifters.

I have seen the reviews where someone with no real long-term hands on calls this bike in particular, and other DCT models in general, a dog for performance. It isn't a liter bike with 200 horsepower, but it gets up and moves enough to keep me entertained. Crank hard on the throttle in Sport Mode and you're passing 65 mph in 4th gear and climbing fast. In the "real world," that's still enough for "go to jail" performance. I come back to our motorhome after each ride with a big smile on my face.

These days, on the occasion I do use Drive Mode, it seems almost lethargic by comparison. But, there are times when Drive Mode is the right choice... like on a highway when running at 55 to 60 mph... Sport Mode will have the bike "hunting" between 5th and 6th gears; pop it into Drive Mode and it keeps the RPMs down. And with "spirited" riding on twisty roads through the hills, I am getting 73 to 78 miles per gallon (using ethanol-free regular).

It all works together nicely.

Here's a video from today's ride...

Every Ride Is Different...

Even on the same roads. The weather is different; as is the traffic. A neighbor here at Hart Ranch commented to me about "how frequently...

captnjim.blogspot.com

 

[Captain Jim]

It may be blasphemous linking to another forum, but this is an interesting article on DCT; followed by the usual comments, many from people who have obviously never ridden a bike with DCT.

The Honda DCT May Be the Future of Motorcycling - Adventure Rider

Honda is no stranger to making it easier to change gears on a motorcycle, […]

www.advrider.com