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What is sadly missing from modern entry level motorcycles?

Electronic cruise is one of those things you don't appreciate until you've had it. I've used o-rings, Throttlemeisters, and the clamp style like the Vista Cruise and there's just no comparison to actual electronic cruise that acts the same way it does in your car. I'd love to have it on every bike, but it's overkill on an entry level motorcycle. Noob bikes should be as light and cheap as possible. It's easy to say adding it is just some software and a few buttons, but you can say that about a lot of luxury features. Pennies add up to dollars and grams add up to pounds.
 
JimVonBaden said:
Sorry, I don't think you understand what it takes to add the features "you" desire. We will just have to agree to disagree.
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As to what "I" desire. It's not an argument. The title of the thread is a question so everyone can add their own items on what they think is missing.

I don't think it's about disagreeing. It's more about different viewpoints. I see your points, but I also see the other points.
For example the fuel tank. Sure, to change a 10 liter fuel tank to a 15 liter one, on a bike already on the market is expensive. But to design a tank that is 15 liters instead of 10 liters for a new bike, when you have design one anyway, adds no real cost in the design process. Different lines in the software don't change the design costs. It adds no noticeable cost in manufacturing. It needs single digit % extra of sheet metal and paint to cover. That is very small part of the total cost of the tank. Forming the sheet metal can costs the same. Transporting materials to manufacturing site and fuel tank to assembly plant can cost the same. Fuel pump, fuel sender and filler cap are the same. The difference in price is negligible. If you don't like the extra weight of 5 liters of fuel, there is nothing forcing you to fill the tank to the brim.
 
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Punkinhead said:
Electronic cruise is one of those things you don't appreciate until you've had it. I've used o-rings, Throttlemeisters, and the clamp style like the Vista Cruise and there's just no comparison to actual electronic cruise that acts the same way it does in your car. I'd love to have it on every bike, but it's overkill on an entry level motorcycle. Noob bikes should be as light and cheap as possible. It's easy to say adding it is just some software and a few buttons, but you can say that about a lot of luxury features. Pennies add up to dollars and grams add up to pounds.
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Correct. It all adds up. I did mention price point of 15 000, that should cover wide variety of bikes and make absolute penny pinching irrelevant.
Noobs can also appreciate some extras that are inexpensive to implement. If manufacturers are adding watercooling, ABS, etc on newly designed entry level bikes, then cruise control shouldn't break the bank or weight limit..
 
Options for ergos. Tall seat, raised bars, footpeg options. That sort of thing. I think lowered suspension is a common thing now?
 
Most new trucks have ten speeds. Bicycles were ten speeds ages ago. Honda had the dual range figured out long ago. That is not something I could easily do on my own in the aftermarket. I’d certainly be willing to pay a little more and I think it could perfect a true dual sport.
 
ZoomerP said:
The performance characteristics of the power sources are slightly different between bicycles and ICEs. The increasing number of gears used for ICEs has more to do with squeezing out every bit of fuel economy and emission improvements possible, especially with four-wheel+ vehicles.

If you're asking for lower gearing on a bike without losing high speed performance, that's possible and may be more useful on some bikes than others. Otoh, below a certain speed a bike loses stability, and it's already common practice to slip the clutch when riding slowly. No added cost or weight with that, but it does require added skill.

I've also read that Honda's two-speed system like on the old CTs wasn't the most reliable. A new design may improve on that front, but it'd still introduce complexity.

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I think we're closing in on a point where a lot of these ICE-centric features mentioned in this thread won't see further development as e-bikes begin to make their presence felt in overall sales.
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Yup.

I guess I’ll be waiting for the bold new graphics so as not to be disappointed.
 
Surely already mentioned, but I just want to see better suspension offered on entry level to middleweight bikes. Not talking fully adjustable ohlins, just something better than the craptastic damper-rod forks everything south of $9k seems to sport. Everything else is good enough.
 
Just cheaper OTD prices are what's missing from entry level bikes. Once the fees and taxes are added up, a basic Chinese made 250cc is $4, 200.00 a Yamaha R3 $8.200.00. Maybe that's not a lot of money for a middle-aged person, but a student or a person commuting early on in a career with the rising cost of living, that's a lot of money.
 
GMK999 said:
Reverse.. Bikes should have a simple reverse.like a small electric starter motor that can engage and assist backing the bike up a small incline or over rougher terrain . Nothing complicated just enough to help in tight spots
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I've never understood why reverse wasn't standard on big cruiser bikes, what's another 50 pounds (22.68 kg) on a 500 pound + (226.8 kg) motorcycle? As motorcyclists are growing older in North America, it could be a solid selling option.
 
I am in the minority here, I don’t think any entry level motorcycle should have the items on the list. An entry level bike should be a blank slate. DR650 or WR250R are great examples of that. They are decent enough to ride off the showroom floor and the aftermarket offers every part you could ever imagine.
 
The purpose of an entry level bike is to give a noob the ability to try out motorcycling to see if they like it. That means it should be inexpensive and simple. Many experienced riders can't appreciate a good suspension so a new rider certainly isn't going to. And a good suspension would add hundreds of dollars to the cost for absolutely no benefit. And I say this as a guy who upgrades the suspension on every bike I buy. But that's after decades of riding, track days, and road racing. I wouldn't have recognized or benefited from a quality suspension as a new rider and didn't have the extra money to waste on it.
 
What the heck is an entry level bike? After many decades of riding I find myself looking at an "entry level bike", mainly because it has a 364lb curb weight, 45hp,, 6 sp and can be found for umder 5k!
 
Punkinhead said:
The purpose of an entry level bike is to give a noob the ability to try out motorcycling to see if they like it. That means it should be inexpensive and simple. Many experienced riders can't appreciate a good suspension so a new rider certainly isn't going to. And a good suspension would add hundreds of dollars to the cost for absolutely no benefit. And I say this as a guy who upgrades the suspension on every bike I buy. But that's after decades of riding, track days, and road racing. I wouldn't have recognized or benefited from a quality suspension as a new rider and didn't have the extra money to waste on it.
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I agree except that new riders can't appreciate better suspension. I don't think there's any sense in throwing fully adjustable suspension on them (that's going to be beyond most beginners to take advantage of). When I first started riding I might not have able to take advantage truly great suspension, but I was definitely unsettled and held back by both the road and dual sport bikes I had because the suspension wasn't very compliant.

I think we can do better than the harsh damper rod forks and poorly damping shocks that have proliferated the entry to mid-level bikes (Japanese ones anyhow) for past three decades. Granted mid-level bikes are starting to see decent non adjustable suspension now.

Again I'm not talking anything high zoot, just crappy damper rod forks fitted with race tech gold valve level of performance.
 
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A good suspension might be the reason a new rider stays riding, instead of deciding motorcycles are not for him. Good suspension doesn't have to be expensive. Top line suspension usually is expensive but there is a point between pogosticks and race suspension that is both inexpensive and gives a good ride.

Reverse would be good for heavier bikes. I don't see Goldwings in the entry level market but it's still a good point.

For options that are unlocked in software. Those usually require extra hardware. Sensors, etc. Zero has heated grips installed and wired, but locked in software. That does not drive the costs down. It also raises the question of what will happen when firmware/software is updated. Will you have to go back to the dealer to argue when the heated grips don't work on your Zero after the dealer updated the firmware? Tesla has disabled purchased options after new (second hand) owner received his car. Claiming that the new owner had not purchased the extras and would have to pay extra for them.
 
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I agree that suspensions can be made better (but not great) without too much cost. Mostly by better damping. Manufacturers are kind of stuck on the springs through, because they have to put in one spring that covers riders over a very wide weight range which really can't be done.

I don't know of any entry level bike that has software locked options. None of the Zero models are entry level.
 
Punkinhead said:
I agree that suspensions can be made better (but not great) without too much cost. Mostly by better damping. Manufacturers are kind of stuck on the springs through, because they have to put in one spring that covers riders over a very wide weight range which really can't be done.

I don't know of any entry level bike that has software locked options. None of the Zero models are entry level.
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It's a big problem for manufacturers that the riders size varies wildly. From under 150 to over 300 pounds. It's very difficult to find a spring that fits all equally. But springs by themselves are not expensive and if rear shocks had the option of replacing the oil and adjusting compression/rebound it would already be marked improvement. Forks usually have the option of replacing the oil. I've frequently used that to tune the front suspension.

Zero was taken as an example of a manufacturer that has this "abomination" :pope installed in their newest SR model, (which just happens to be top of the line, the FX is the entry level into the Zero range of bikes (FXE might be considered newer than SR but it's basically just updated FX)) and as an example of extra equipment that is on a bike as it leaves the factory, but is not functional until you pay more on top of the (top of the line) purchase price. This was reply to ZoomerP post (see below) as an example of something that is included on the bike but does not necessarily drive the cost down. As much as I dislike it, this "feature" will come to the cheaper models soon enough.
Next step might be a situation where you'd have to pay for usage. Maybe 1000 dollars per year or 5000 miles, whichever comes first, to activate and use the bike you purchased. :(

ZoomerP said:
If a feature can be enabled for a fee, that means it's already installed on a larger number of bikes, which helps drive the cost down.
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Yinzer Moto said:
I am in the minority here, I don’t think any entry level motorcycle should have the items on the list. An entry level bike should be a blank slate. DR650 or WR250R are great examples of that. They are decent enough to ride off the showroom floor and the aftermarket offers every part you could ever imagine.
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I see a difference between entry level, beginner and cheap bikes.
An entry level bike should in my opinion be nicely engineered, well equipped bike, that handles nicely and comes at a good price.
Beginner bike should first and foremost be sturdy and simple bike. Extra equipment and nice handling is a bonus.
Cheap bikes can be okay, but tend to be less reliable and have difficulty finding spare parts.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. The 15000 price point mentioned should be able to include lot of variations.
 
I didn't think I'd care about a gear indicator. First time I saw one I thought it was the silliest thing ever. Now I'm annoyed that my dirt bikes don't have them!

I really enjoy having a fuel gauge, though I still use the trip meter in conjunction.

I don't really like a lot of tech. If it starts easy and shifts smooth I'm pretty much alright. Current bike has ride modes, I don't use it. Not interested in ABS/ TC, touchscreen dashes,etc[UWSL] ...but then I fell in love with something as simple as a gear indicator, so I've learned to never say never. [/UWSL]
 
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Punkinhead said:
Electronic cruise is one of those things you don't appreciate until you've had it. I've used o-rings, Throttlemeisters, and the clamp style like the Vista Cruise and there's just no comparison to actual electronic cruise that acts the same way it does in your car. I'd love to have it on every bike, but it's overkill on an entry level motorcycle. Noob bikes should be as light and cheap as possible. It's easy to say adding it is just some software and a few buttons, but you can say that about a lot of luxury features. Pennies add up to dollars and grams add up to pounds.
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My FZ 09 is fly by wire and does not have cruise. The FJ09 had it, though. It's literally just in programming of the ECU. The only hardware cost is a different switchgear and a few more wires in the loom. So I understand why some folks see this as a "free" feature that's being locked away.

For one a few hundred bucks I can get an aftermarket quickshifter for my bike that will auto blip for me on downshifts, so the hardware to activate the throttle is already there ( weight, cost), only the button to activate it is missing.
 
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