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Braking myths.

klaviator

klaviator

Scooter Trash
Joined
Feb 8, 2022
Member Number
431
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3,443
Location
Alabama
We've all heard of the "don't touch the front brakes you'll go over the handlebars myth. There are a few "riders" out there who still believe this although I doubt any are on this site. How about the "do all your braking while straight up and down, not in the curve" myth. The MSF used to actually teach this as did Keith Code. There are still a lot of riders out there who still believe this.

Anyone here still believe this myth?
 
Use brakes any time you need to slow down. Period 😁

After growing up on dirt bikes and never learning to use the front brake much ( still don't, in the dirt) I decided to focus on front brake more when I started riding on the street. I was maybe late twenties and was going on a ride with the guys who run a local bike shop. I guess I looked a little wobbly ( I felt fine 😁) and the older fella in his sixties motioned for me to follow him. I followed him to a large parking lot and he informed me of the importance of using rear brake for stability at low speeds. I'm glad he did. I'm glad he wasn't afraid of offending somebody and I'm glad I wasn't too driven stubborn to listen to help.

Looking back, my main takeaway is don't believe internet hype. "If you use rear brake in a corner you'll lay er down!" Nah, it's a great way to tighten your line without disturbing the fork. The old man taught me that, too. RIP Monty. Miss riding with you.
 
klaviator said:
We've all heard of the "don't touch the front brakes you'll go over the handlebars myth. There are a few "riders" out there who still believe this although I doubt any are on this site. How about the "do all your braking while straight up and down, not in the curve" myth. The MSF used to actually teach this as did Keith Code. There are still a lot of riders out there who still believe this.

Anyone here still believe this myth?
Click to expand...
Well, "over the handlebars" is not familiar with me. Losing the front is more familiar. Unfortunately this is not a myth.
Now. Before you forget the right to free speech and start vehemently expressing (assholingly shouting in writing (for the less educated)) your displeasure of that daring comment.
Let me explain.
For a riding noob, on a bike with awesome brakes, an ungentle application of the front brakes can easily cause the front to wash out. Same with trailbraking, except that can cause the rear to lose traction. Harsh use of throttle on a powerful bike can cause the rear to slide. Therefore it is right to teach braking while upright to noobs.
Now. For more experienced riders, braking into a corner, and using the throttle before the bike is upright, is normal. But more experienced riders know (or more accurately, have spent years developing a feeling for) when that is safe to do. That knowledge takes into account the bite of the brakes, the power application of the throttle movement, the grip of the tires, the surface of the road, the weather conditions. It is easy to forget that noobs do not have years of experience and easily become overwhelmed when having to deal with all that. So it's safer to teach them to be very gentle on the front brakes and only use brakes and throttle when the bike is upright. The aim of most riding schools is to create safe riders who don't kill themselves in the first weeks.
 
ZoomerP said:
As of 2020, the MSF Basic course still said the same. At least in my class, any questions related to braking were all redirected to what could be called vertical braking.

I asked about trail braking and the instructor went a little funny.

Click to expand...
Not all MSF instructors have gotten the word and still teach the old crap.
 
Amos Malone said:
Well, "over the handlebars" is not familiar with me. Losing the front is more familiar. Unfortunately this is not a myth.
Now. Before you forget the right to free speech and start vehemently expressing (assholingly shouting in writing (for the less educated)) your displeasure of that daring comment.
Let me explain.
For a riding noob, on a bike with awesome brakes, an ungentle application of the front brakes can easily cause the front to wash out. Same with trailbraking, except that can cause the rear to lose traction. Harsh use of throttle on a powerful bike can cause the rear to slide. Therefore it is right to teach braking while upright to noobs.
Now. For more experienced riders, braking into a corner, and using the throttle before the bike is upright, is normal. But more experienced riders know (or more accurately, have spent years developing a feeling for) when that is safe to do. That knowledge takes into account the bite of the brakes, the power application of the throttle movement, the grip of the tires, the surface of the road, the weather conditions. It is easy to forget that noobs do not have years of experience and easily become overwhelmed when having to deal with all that. So it's safer to teach them to be very gentle on the front brakes and only use brakes and throttle when the bike is upright. The aim of most riding schools is to create safe riders who don't kill themselves in the first weeks.
Click to expand...
Sure you can get into trouble with miss use of either the brakes or throttle. I agree that noobs shouldn't be taught too much at first. Learn the basics and then move on to more advanced techniques. However the idea that you should never use your brakes while leaned over is a bad idea.

As for washing out the front end, that tends to happen when you grab the front brake and apply too fast before you transfer weight to the front wheel. That can happen going straight or leaned over.
 
klaviator said:
We've all heard of the "don't touch the front brakes you'll go over the handlebars myth. There are a few "riders" out there who still believe this although I doubt any are on this site. How about the "do all your braking while straight up and down, not in the curve" myth. The MSF used to actually teach this as did Keith Code. There are still a lot of riders out there who still believe this.

Anyone here still believe this myth?
Click to expand...
I had a discussion with some squid the other afternoon, at a parking lot. I noticed he was behind me for a few miles and trying his hardest to keep up through the curves. He was quick on the straights and kept it close but was total dog shit in the curves. :imaposer It was about how I was able to brake while leaning in a curve without wiping out. I told him how it's done and the MSF courses I took all taught it. I took the beginner, intermediate, and advanced courses less than a year ago. They've paid off in dividends as far as my own confidence, safety, and ability are concerned. I do a ton of trailbraking on both my bike and in my car, and I actively teach the technique to the more advanced permit holder drivers. There are a set of state highways in the immediate area I like to take them on- rain, fog, or shine. By the time we're at the halfway point, they're able to carry the momentum and speed through the curves. I also teach them when to disable the traction control and how to use the lower gears in a stick automatic. Something the other instructors are oblivious to.

Amos Malone said:
Well, "over the handlebars" is not familiar with me. Losing the front is more familiar. Unfortunately this is not a myth.
Now. Before you forget the right to free speech and start vehemently expressing (assholingly shouting in writing (for the less educated)) your displeasure of that daring comment.
Let me explain.
For a riding noob, on a bike with awesome brakes, an ungentle application of the front brakes can easily cause the front to wash out. Same with trailbraking, except that can cause the rear to lose traction. Harsh use of throttle on a powerful bike can cause the rear to slide. Therefore it is right to teach braking while upright to noobs.
Now. For more experienced riders, braking into a corner, and using the throttle before the bike is upright, is normal. But more experienced riders know (or more accurately, have spent years developing a feeling for) when that is safe to do. That knowledge takes into account the bite of the brakes, the power application of the throttle movement, the grip of the tires, the surface of the road, the weather conditions. It is easy to forget that noobs do not have years of experience and easily become overwhelmed when having to deal with all that. So it's safer to teach them to be very gentle on the front brakes and only use brakes and throttle when the bike is upright. The aim of most riding schools is to create safe riders who don't kill themselves in the first weeks.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with anything you've stated. The noobs definitely need to develop solid fundamental riding habits before dipping into the more advanced techniques.
 
Braking skills are fun to learn on scooters. I brake to the apex. And I like to keep the driveline lash tight. So I throttle against the brake enough to keep the chain, gears and primay gears or chains lash free. I usually save this for a tailgater.

I commuted for 5 years straight with no cage in the icy north. And have 1000s of snow and ice miles on all types of bikes. The brake is traction control and the throttle is antilock. And this not taught but is learned real quick. I still use this everyday in the logging yard in the soupy parts. Really can't beat just riding slower or chassis dynamics. I raced flat track once and the fastest bikes are brakeless speeway bikes. I grew up riding brakeless bmx and still run some atv tire minis on the trail....brakeless.

What will bite anyone is a dog popping out from behind a bush. Mans best friend sould be treated like a speed bump and gassed over. But instinct says save the dog. I had the biggest raccoon jump out mid apex. I stood the bike up a hair and gassed..about like running over a 2x4. Barely noticed it. Heavy bikes can plow right over alot of wildlife. No need for panick breaking and washing out the front end. I dont ride with anyone because they complain I dont ride fast enough and I never slow down.
 
Yeah I can't tell you the last time I used all four fingers on the Brakes, maybe stopped in traffic on a hill? Now for off road I used the front brakes quite a bit, it made stepping out the rear super controllable when on the moondust dirt roads in the desert of CA. Once you get the feel of the balance between throttle and brake pressure its an absolute blast, I just wish I could manage it on the track now (reliably) :lol3
 
I could see why for the beginner MSF course they only cover vertical braking, when I took mine way back now we stayed busy the whole time as it was. For an intermediate and advanced course it should 100% be a part of the instruction though. Leaning to trail brake even mildly has helped me out more times than I can count in the canyons and on track days, plus its just useful around town when you spot the glass shards in an intersection or whatever.
 
klaviator said:
Another common myth out there is that trail braking is an advanced technique
Click to expand...
Preach it, brother!

If you realize you need to slow down while turning...you use the brakes. That seems like common sense, but years ago a bunch of "You've been doing it all wrong!" YouTube riding gurus started pumping out videos exposing the secret of trail braking.

"If you apply your brakes in a corner your bike will go slower. Just do it easy".

What?! That can't possibly work!
 
psykown said:
I could see why for the beginner MSF course they only cover vertical braking, when I took mine way back now we stayed busy the whole time as it was. For an intermediate and advanced course it should 100% be a part of the instruction though. Leaning to trail brake even mildly has helped me out more times than I can count in the canyons and on track days, plus its just useful around town when you spot the glass shards in an intersection or whatever.
Click to expand...
Trying to teach something like trail braking in an MSF basic would just be too much but they should not be telling students that braking while leaned over is a no no. Just tell then to get comfortable braking in a straight line before learning braking in a curve.
 
Riding sumos...just tap the front brakes with 2 downshifts. The rear will step out. Then roll on the throttle. Easy peasy. Not sure why a sumo feels so natural stepped out. I can still out brake and turn almost anything in 35mph and below on a scooter. Great brakes, low cg and smooth power plus super easy to trail the left hand brake and gas at the same time.
 
And if you really need to stop fast on a sumo(I guess anything really), slight drag on the rear brake to help stretch the bike out and then smooth and hard on the font! scared myself the first time I really got it right on my husky, felt liked I literally stopped on a dime!
 
ZoomerP said:
That's what I'd expect from good instruction. Give due weight to real issues, but don't embed more bad information in students' heads because they aren't ready for more nuanced techniques. Mentions of trail braking shouldn't make people cringe like an appearance of Voldemort in a Harry Potter tale.

The MSF Basic course should naturally feed into more advanced courses, and those courses shouldn't require the instructors to undo bad information from the Basic course. Maybe the reason MSF doesn't offer many more advanced courses around me is because the Basic course has been burdened with questionable guidance.
Click to expand...
There was discussion about this on the other site. Apparently some instructors didn't get the word that the MSF stance on braking while leaned over had changed. They aren't supposed to teach it but they aren't supposed to say not to do it either. I still remeber taking the basic course way back in the 80s. I didn't even know about trail braking back then but I knew that what they were teaching was BS. They also didn't explain much about how much front and rear brake to use. They just said use both brakes. Of course how much front and rear brake to use in various scenarios is a pretty complicated subject and TMI in a basic course. They could at least say that it varies depending on the situation and bike and that it was a good subject to reads up on after the course.
 
I just putt around or blast and leave everyone to their own style . My style has an insurance premium on way too many bikes. I have never taken a course. I climbed on a gs750l 34yrs ago and rode. No prior minibike or moped..nothing. From bmx to 750cc. Still here 50 bikes later. Not like you can brake when a cages trans cooler line breaks at a traffic light. Heck just putting a foot down..or ground silt that is like nano ball bearings when heavy machinery runs over it. Too many variables to teach. Heck motorcycle life would be better taught with finances and investments to afford bikes or injuries. The riding part is easy.
 
klaviator said:
Apparently some instructors didn't get the word that the MSF stance on braking while leaned over had changed.
Click to expand...
Now that's something to think about, isn't it,?

Some humble soul approaches you to teach him what will keep him safe and the instructors look it up in a book first?

Instructors aren't long-time riders with proven experience? Because if you were teaching a class and the textbook had bad info you, a good teacher would be like, "yeah, this is some bullshit" and give you the low down anyway.
 
I think that the advances in electronic bike controls like ABS and traction control has lulled many noobs into not learning the basic riding skills and ‘getting away with it‘ because of that, keeps them from learning actual skills.. YMMV
 
I took the Navy's version of the MSF basic back in the mid 80s. When I took it I had been riding a few years so I wasn't really a beginner. I remember them having an exercise where where you rode around a curve and then straightened up before braking. They made it clear not to brake while leaned over. While I was no expert rider at that time I thought that was pretty stupid. I had braked while leaned over plenty of times and was still alive! While they no longer teach that, not all MSF instructors have kept up and are still teaching "don't brake while leaned over". Even Keith code used to teach "finish braking before the curve then flick it in". Modern riding schools teach trail braking. Applying the brakes while in the curve is not considered good technique but if you need to do it it's nice to know how. The only way to know how is to practice occasionally. Different bikes react differently to doing this so it would be a good idea to know how your bike will respond. Some bikes want to stand up when you brake in a curve and if you aren't prepared you could go off the road.
 
If I remember my ToTW material, Code suggests learning how to brake before turning in, so as to learn the basics first. The goal being to develop braking fundamentals before compressing them in time and combining with turning.
 
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