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Is china the answer

Madmx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2023
Member Number
1870
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744
Location
Eastern swamps
I get tired of basically bs crap vs market value.
A dam crf300l is not worth 9k. It is freaking sad!!

I would shut alot riders down with a 96 xr100..but money rules. Oh well I have my answers and yall have yours. Sad...sad...sad

But hey a Dl1000 with tires for 2k...who is beast
 
Lots of YouTubers and others with internet clout have been paid to review Chinese bikes and afterwards the prices skyrocketed. Of course not all Chinese bikes are the same.

Yeah, a CRF300 is not worth $9k. That's insane. Pre-covid you could walk out the door with a brand new MT09 for $8k or less. Those same bikes are bringing $9-10 used now. It's all nuts.

I was considering a GPX years ago when you could get one to your door for about $2,600-2,800. I thought too long and a few months later the price had risen to $5,600. Let's just say my buddy's GPX barely gets used and I'm MUCH happier with my $1600 twenty year old KTM
 
I’d take anything built in Thailand ot Taiwan over China. Lots of the big companies build there now. But what I really want is that Honda 350 still made in Japan. If imported it might be my first Honda and last brand new bike.
 
I dont think china is the answer and i do not think a CRF300 is worth 9K either.
Chinese bikes are ok up to a point, and it could be argued that many are made on the exact same make and model CNC machine used in europe the USA India or japan just the buttons are pushed by Chinese people. Again probably true.
You could use this same angle of debate about cars guns pretty much anything, but in the final analysis you have to look at the whole deal. So for relative ease of explanation of such terminology lets break it down.
1. Not all chinese bikes are created equal, they can look similar with huge amounts of the Generic china components in their construction and mechanical s based often more than loosely around well known Japanese Marques power plants for example., sometimes interchangeable to varying extents. But in the final analysis are thair own brand and as such brings us to number 2.
2. Like it or not your china steed even if of shall we say of Better design and good build quality, Will need parts.
The better known chinese marques have often half decent dealer importer spares back up spanning multiples of year decades in some cases. But not all, and add to this as is the way with such things parts sourses are often on a tender and the cheapest component gets the contract so this is another area where good dealer suport fighting your corner to ensure decent quality spares is something you must include when considering a specific brand or model. In fairness it can be a worldwide issue this and is by no means just china products but is a consideration non the less.
3. Running reliability performance and economy.
As said some chinese bikes bear somewhat more of a passing resemblance to some common japanese offerings, and some do work reliably long term the CG honda clones and Zonchen yamaha clones are just two examples but there are many more 650s 250s etc.
Now the CG clones work and work well the lifan liquid cooled examples are actually imo quite impressive.
Generaly from what i have seen they hold up well to miles and perform acceptably for bikes of that capacity.
I simply can not say if a lets say cam from a genuine CG125 with 50K miles on it will be better or worse warn than a lifan CG clone the same miles, i am not sure such detailed comparison exists or could be gathered because miles can be hard miles or relatively easy miles way to many varriables if i am honest with ya.
Now the Accrual RUNNING now here i think i will air my opinion with a little more brevity. Had both and sorry china out the box the lifans on OKO carb will not run as well as the CG125 on mikuni. and even when you swap on the mikuni they do not feel as sorted as the honda. I am talking 1970s CG125s here not the brazilian version.
Now Flicking to the WK BIKES CF MOTO 650 motors, just look at garry johnson a decade ago on the TT running WK bikes in the lightweight twins TT up against Kawasakis 650 motors the China bike could not quite make the power of the Kawasaki and over several years Garry and others were let down mechanicaly by the CF motos and i hear you say But some kawasakis failed too. True but it was repeated not one offs. I think in such extreme conditions the problems stand a chance of developing and the WK bikes simply were not as good as a kawasaki generaly. YOMV.
The zonchen / yamaha clones seem very impresive the 125 in the Star cruiser air cooled are lighter than the CG motor physicaly smaller and make power nye on as good as the Yamaha YBr is it. ?
So in conclusion probaly in a road bike acceptable performance and reliability, for race development probably better options iMO.
ecconomy. Well the liquid cooled lifan 125 which has made use of its cooler runing and tighter tolerances is a 100MPG 125 and thats in a fat cruiser. Ok more like 85MPG in overal use but a straight road careful use of the twist grip 100MPG (UK GALLON) is a thing i know this i done it.
4. Resale vallue well not in the sales bis so not 100% but given the used prices you see them at many loose money faster than the more or less equivulent japs, but some body has to pay the bigger price and take the big hit on resale or run it into the ground. A used Jap after the initial hit is IMO a better bet long term than a used china in the same situation.
So what to buy?
well this is me and probably not you, but Me i would go enfield far from perfect some stuff plastic guards some other tacky bits i dont like, but i like the simplicity the oldie worldieness in a new or newish bike today. Enfield are kilking this and rightlyb so. and are even making more stret credible modernish models you could probably live with compared to the older naked bike vibe. Ok not perfect a bit fat and ok you could loose the LBS but its more money and other than a striped down minimalist approch which i personaly like, you will be buying after market bits rims etc which will cost you.
Yep! ME! Enfield. YOMV.
PS dont start winging about Enfields not having power, acepted they are not dyno busters but have all you really need for road work and moar. just sayin.
 
Soggy Biscuit said:
None of the shops around my area will work on a Chinese bike. They all state it on their websites and have signs posted.
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That's common here as well.

Mainly because if a part has to be ordered they get stuck with the bike taking up space for weeks or months while you either simply wait for parts to arrive, or because you can't simply order parts...you have to scrounge online and see what you can find to make it work. And nobody is gonna pay you for being on the clock for HOURS doing the research.
 
Shinyribs said:
That's common here as well.

Mainly because if a part has to be ordered they get stuck with the bike taking up space for weeks or months while you either simply wait for parts to arrive, or because you can't simply order parts...you have to scrounge online and see what you can find to make it work. And nobody is gonna pay you for being on the clock for HOURS doing the research.
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There is one shop around the corner with signs all over the front door and in front of the garage doors stating they won't work on "Chinese shit." There are people who still bring their Chinese built shit and get butt-hurt when the shop tells them they don't work on those bikes.
 
The " Chinese Shit " mindset feels very much like the Harley guy sneering at a Honda because it's not a "real bike" 😁

I was thinking about all this while riding with my Chinese helmet, my Chinese heated gloves and my Chinese built boots (RST street boots).Not only were all those things more affordable than their "real" counterparts, they're actually a better product than "real" things I've owned in the past.

Reverse that for my comms. I have Sena's now and really wish I still had my old eBay comms back. They were better in every way.

My Chinese dirt bike boots are surprisingly much nicer and far sturdier than the Tech 7's they replaced.

The big brand names are selling us Chinese made products at "real brand" prices while simultaneously cutting corners on materials.

Companies like CF Moto are doing it right. The copycat ripoff artists, meh.
 
A carb for the log splitter, fine.

A set of bars for my C90T? Hard pass.

All the garbage shit being hocked to us just reinforces to keep my old shit running.
 
Shinyribs said:
The " Chinese Shit " mindset feels very much like the Harley guy sneering at a Honda because it's not a "real bike" 😁

I was thinking about all this while riding with my Chinese helmet, my Chinese heated gloves and my Chinese built boots (RST street boots).Not only were all those things more affordable than their "real" counterparts, they're actually a better product than "real" things I've owned in the past.

Reverse that for my comms. I have Sena's now and really wish I still had my old eBay comms back. They were better in every way.

My Chinese dirt bike boots are surprisingly much nicer and far sturdier than the Tech 7's they replaced.

The big brand names are selling us Chinese made products at "real brand" prices while simultaneously cutting corners on materials.

Companies like CF Moto are doing it right. The copycat ripoff artists, meh.
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It was their words. Not mine. I sometimes pick up freight at the warehouse next to that shop. They don't oppose Chinese gear. Just the bikes.

Even though I've been back on the saddle for a little under a year, I have noticed there are too many premium priced brands out there that don't do it any better than the "lesser" brands who are Chinese owned. HJC, a Korean company, makes good helmets. As stated in a different thread, the i90 I use regularly is way better than the Shoei Neotec II. Shoei can get fucked!
 
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I can find any part for common clones in minutes and a few days shipping. If I could find a nice ktm or xr250 for $1600 bucks I would buy one. I do not think my tw200 has the same build quality as earlier models.

My gpx has been fine. I am tempted to get an air cooled ktm clone because it exists. Radiators are really not my thing. I just bought what existed and was close to my needs. I would stack a clone against my xt, drz and tw. The xt is proven but the ergos suck. And a replacement wheel is crazy high for crappy parts. I find the whole mess interesting. My most expensive bike is the Aprilia rxv. And it was made in China in 2007. All these companies have out sourced parts for decades. Ktm and bmw are almost completely Chinese parts. Honda is another big time China company. The xr150l is pretty darn crappy. Add dealer fees and it becomes $5k crappy.
 
If I had a shop I would work on anything from a knucklehead to a xpro. The only requirement would be to pay the bill.
 
oilhed said:
I’d take anything built in Thailand ot Taiwan over China. Lots of the big companies build there now. But what I really want is that Honda 350 still made in Japan. If imported it might be my first Honda and last brand new bike.
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I dig that bike. I was quoted $5100 last year for a classic 350. I thought the quote was reasonable.
 
Madmx said:
Radiators are really not my thing. I just bought what existed and was close to my needs.
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Describing me to a T for years. Never been picky, just wanted someone cheap and easy to ride. Spent years on XR's because they were "cheap and reliable" according to the general consensus. Traveled far to find them.

First off, I'm not hating on XR's. Too many good memories. But skip over the 250 and get the 400. Gobs more power, same weight. I never used my 250, gave it to Dad and he doesn't use it either. But I was digging not needing rads on my Honda's.

An estart KTM 520 EXC popped up 15 minutes from home, and cheap. The bump in compression that rads allow...holy shit, the amount of bottom end torque shocked me. Power wheelie in fifth gear at will. I was in love, until the bastard struggled to stay in the woods without getting hot. Couldn't crawl in the woods but for maybe 15-20 minutes without hitting the pasture for a cool down lap. Couple years later a 300 EXC fell in my lap. Dude, that thing can crawl all day and not make heat. I know, I know... another KTM fanboy pushing the 300. It's not like that. I found the 300 surprising low on torque compared to the legendary stories of "ripping your arms off" I'd heard. It's strong, but it's not RFS strong. But if you want a light clutch, eeeeasy to kick, won't overheat trail bike to cut trails in virgin woods, I haven't found it's match yet.

The used market is flooded with KTM's now. 10-15 year old KTM's are cheaper than XR's and KTM parts are WAY cheaper than Honda parts. Something to think about. I can't bring myself to spend more than $1500-2000 on something I'm gonna run in to trees and drop off cliffs.
 
Madmx said:
I can find any part for common clones in minutes and a few days shipping.
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You can do that because you know that world and know what to look and how to type in the searches. A dummy like me would be lost 😁
 
Shinyribs said:
Describing me to a T for years. Never been picky, just wanted someone cheap and easy to ride. Spent years on XR's because they were "cheap and reliable" according to the general consensus. Traveled far to find them.

First off, I'm not hating on XR's. Too many good memories. But skip over the 250 and get the 400. Gobs more power, same weight. I never used my 250, gave it to Dad and he doesn't use it either. But I was digging not needing rads on my Honda's.

An estart KTM 520 EXC popped up 15 minutes from home, and cheap. The bump in compression that rads allow...holy shit, the amount of bottom end torque shocked me. Power wheelie in fifth gear at will. I was in love, until the bastard struggled to stay in the woods without getting hot. Couldn't crawl in the woods but for maybe 15-20 minutes without hitting the pasture for a cool down lap. Couple years later a 300 EXC fell in my lap. Dude, that thing can crawl all day and not make heat. I know, I know... another KTM fanboy pushing the 300. It's not like that. I found the 300 surprising low on torque compared to the legendary stories of "ripping your arms off" I'd heard. It's strong, but it's not RFS strong. But if you want a light clutch, eeeeasy to kick, won't overheat trail bike to cut trails in virgin woods, I haven't found it's match yet.

The used market is flooded with KTM's now. 10-15 year old KTM's are cheaper than XR's and KTM parts are WAY cheaper than Honda parts. Something to think about. I can't bring myself to spend more than $1500-2000 on something I'm gonna run in to trees and drop off cliffs.
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I have put a few laps on an xr400. It was a good time. Where are all these ktm 300. I am hooked on the ergos and power of the tse250r. I just have to remind myself to be gear high for log bumps. And there are times when I miss the 4 stroke. The tse will pull below idle and scream up top. But I think the chassis impresses me more than the engine. That is the dilemma of a modern chassis with a simple air cooled 4 stroke engine. Only China offers this combo.

What years ktm bikes to look for. I would like the forks to be supple over roots. And have a wide ratio transmission. 200 or 300? I never have the not enough power issue.....I ride a tw
 
Early 2000's KTM's share 90+% of their chassis components with current models. The RFS four stroke engines are out of production now, but still running strong ( stronger than any modern 450) and the part unavailable is the output shaft. The two stroke engines are basically unchanged. The 300 got early estarts in '08, but they didn't get a robust estart until '17 I think.

No dual sport for me, so I prefer a narrow trans over a wide ratio. I can make small speed changes on a tight trail and still keep the revs in the juicy spot. But if you like the ergos of your TSE that's all that matters. When a bike feels good , not just to tolerable, you got it.
 
Soggy Biscuit said:
None of the shops around my area will work on a Chinese bike. They all state it on their websites and have signs posted.
Click to expand...

Like that here as well, but I expect it will gradually change. I ran into the same situation in '75 with nobody willing to work on Toyota except the dealer.
Parts availability & distribution is the solution and that's up to the Manufacturer and local Importer/Distributor.
 
Last year I was searching for a small dualsport to keep on the back of my RV. I had my mind set on a CRF300L (or KLX) but the dealer markups and "market adjustments" were unacceptable. As stated above the CRF300L is a great little bike but not a $9,000 one not even close. This frustration led me to click "buy now" on a small chinese dualsport (Templar X). Almost a year later and it has turned out to fill my requirements perfectly. The price of $1799 +300 shipping was low enough to take the chance. Keep in mind I have other bikes for harder riding, am mechanically inclined and this bike is used quite gently. The experience has been positive enough that I am eagerly watching the release of the CFmoto Ibex 450 as a possible purchase. The dealers of the major companies have really screwed up, imo.
 
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