I've seen the same thing, with a Google Maps "road" going through plowed fields and pasture. I wonder if the base maps rely a little too heavily on platted features that never came to be.I never saw a powerline nor powerline path out there.
One has to wonder what came first: the google map with a white line indicating a road of some sort (perhaps from a really, really long time ago), or the swamp buggies blazing paths and Google maps picking up on it and calling it a passable route, then creating a white line following it? I mean, with as fast as stuff grows out there there very well could have been a blazed path pre-Covid that just grew over.
But then I wonder that a lot about some of the routes Google maps will show as a white line.
Here's 292nd Street in another area I've spent time riding.
This is why I bought aero bars, and why I try to stay in them for the gravel. I was getting to where I was unable to type or write well at work after 80 mile or longer weekend gravel rides without them. I don't have an answer for you, either.
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Bicycle thread
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I never saw a powerline nor powerline path out there.
One has to wonder what came first: the google map with a white line indicating a road of some sort (perhaps from a really, really long time ago), or the swamp buggies blazing paths and Google maps picking up on it and calling it a passable route, then creating a white line following it? I mean, with as fast as stuff grows out there there very well could have been a blazed path pre-Covid that just grew over.
But then I wonder that a lot about some of the routes Google maps will show as a white line.
Here's 292nd Street in another area I've spent time riding.
This is why I bought aero bars, and why I try to stay in them for the gravel. I was getting to where I was unable to type or write well at work after 80 mile or longer weekend gravel rides without them. I don't have an answer for you, either.
Most likely local government planners drew the lines on paper maps buried deep in their archives and Google copied them, then someone tried to drive them.
Sometimes map makers add these non existent roads do it to identify copyright infringement.
It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this practice could create a dangerous situation for someone using the information... instead of a little uncommon sense.
And Google has non existent roads across my properties. I sometimes get people asserting there is a road there and they have the right to drive on them. Yeah... no... that's not happening.
Stormdog
Well-known member
Google isn’t as much your friend in the country as some folks want it to be.
Our moto club has a permit to ride on private property that we access through a locked gate.
Google has that gate and private road behind it as the route to a local hiking trail.
The thing is everyone drives 10 miles past the actual trailhead that is obvious from the highway Only to be turned back at the gate.
Our moto club has a permit to ride on private property that we access through a locked gate.
Google has that gate and private road behind it as the route to a local hiking trail.
The thing is everyone drives 10 miles past the actual trailhead that is obvious from the highway Only to be turned back at the gate.
Psycholist
Where has my rum gone?
The same way I seem to always end up in trouble: Someone tells me it's a loop trail / path when it isn't.
Buddy, who rides a lot and leads a bunch of medium-paced rides, has been there, has done a loop - but we took the wrong turn (against my advice and Google maps). So what does one do when encountering challenges on a loop trail? One slogs through them to keep going - because of course it's going to get better again.
Narrator voice: "But it didn't get better. In fact, it get much, much worse - and then they noticed that they had less than two hours of daylight left... and then they got separated."
Thing is - Google Maps has a white line that is a 'road' going through it, then it keeps going. With my phone screen being smaller as it is, and with very little connection out there for good resolution of google maps satellite view (which I was using), it looked for every intent as a dirt road that would get better.
Looks like swamp buggies (not even jeeps - actual tall swamp buggies) forged the trail after seeing it on the maps. Most of those made the little loops at the end to turn around, but one of them blazed a path to follow what google maps was showing... and he had to give up and merge back with the way they came in.
That's the thing about google maps, gravel biking, and Florida - Google maps has seemingly accumulated every road that was ever planned and mapped it. One can get to those places and find a ranch, a road that hasn't been used since 1950, or nothing at all. And you just don't know until... you know the hard way.
With better connection I would have tried to look at Strava satellite mapping of the area. Strava satellite map images have generally proven to me more updated than Google. I'm not sure why Google Maps has slacked off on updates for satellite images so much, but it is no longer considered reliable.
STOP.USING.GOOGLEMAPS... (at least for off-pavement excursions) Seriously... they have put so many people in harm's way because they falsely show roads and paths that historically do not exist or may only exist in absolutely perfect environmental conditions.
A Hiker Is Lucky to Be Alive After Following a Fake Trail on Google Maps
If you want reliable reference maps, use Trailforks and/or RWGPS with their global heat maps. Trailforks subscription is cheap and allows use of offline maps that provide a bearing and position with the phone app.
Mambo Danny
Member
So I got out for a good little road ride on Thursday - Thanksgiving morning. Now I hadn't ridden he weekend before, and really haven't been on the bike much at all as of late, but I have been hitting the gym four times a week. So... I look better in my cycling kit now than I have at times when I was cycling. Anyway... the point of the post is that gym work can correlate to cycling performance.
I met up with about 75 other road riders at the normal meet-up place, and we left at 7 AM as that place always does. The biggest hitters either weren't there, or were keeping it sane, so while we did separate up into possibly three groups for the ride up, it was pretty much one big group for the ride back. I no longer have a road bike that I want to ride on the roads, so I brought the gravel bike (the Diverge). I was basically the only non-streamlined road bike out there, but I was able to keep up with a sane 'A' group on the way North, and hang with the faster group south. My Sprints were just fine with the 42c tires except they would exhaust me earlier.
What I attribute my ability that absolutely should not be there from lack of practice, especially not on a bike laden with tools and gear in the down-tube and the bag on the top-tube, and hindered by the larger wheels and tires, is the 20-minutes I have been doing most mornings on the elliptical machines. I realize that there are a lot of crappy elliptical machines out there. In fact, I'd guess that 90% of them are shit. I got lucky in that these at my gym are Cybex ArcTrainers (lower body only is my focus like https://kingsofcardio.com/cybex-625a-lower-body-arc-trainer-remanufactured.html ), and they do well for my bad knees - but they also have power levels that can challenge me. After six to ten minutes of warm-up at a lower setting, like 3 reach-sweep at 35% resistance, I'll start moving it up. And I'll do intervals where I get in two or three separate minute-long 100-resistance (the ad for the one linked shows "Resistance Range 0-900 watt" - so I guess that is multiple 900-watt one-minute intervals I'm doing), anywhere from 10 down to 3 reach, with 55 or 65 resistance low-spots between intervals. It seems to directly correlate to cycling for everything except the angles of the hips and torso when we apply the power. And I didn't really notice that until Thursday night / Friday morning while in bed where I was moaning and groaning from the aches, lol. Friday was the day of lessons learned
- a complete washout from the pain where I basically didn't leave the house all day except to take the Diverge to the bike shop for a new headset. 2022 Diverge and the headset is already notched.
I met up with about 75 other road riders at the normal meet-up place, and we left at 7 AM as that place always does. The biggest hitters either weren't there, or were keeping it sane, so while we did separate up into possibly three groups for the ride up, it was pretty much one big group for the ride back. I no longer have a road bike that I want to ride on the roads, so I brought the gravel bike (the Diverge). I was basically the only non-streamlined road bike out there, but I was able to keep up with a sane 'A' group on the way North, and hang with the faster group south. My Sprints were just fine with the 42c tires except they would exhaust me earlier.
What I attribute my ability that absolutely should not be there from lack of practice, especially not on a bike laden with tools and gear in the down-tube and the bag on the top-tube, and hindered by the larger wheels and tires, is the 20-minutes I have been doing most mornings on the elliptical machines. I realize that there are a lot of crappy elliptical machines out there. In fact, I'd guess that 90% of them are shit. I got lucky in that these at my gym are Cybex ArcTrainers (lower body only is my focus like https://kingsofcardio.com/cybex-625a-lower-body-arc-trainer-remanufactured.html ), and they do well for my bad knees - but they also have power levels that can challenge me. After six to ten minutes of warm-up at a lower setting, like 3 reach-sweep at 35% resistance, I'll start moving it up. And I'll do intervals where I get in two or three separate minute-long 100-resistance (the ad for the one linked shows "Resistance Range 0-900 watt" - so I guess that is multiple 900-watt one-minute intervals I'm doing), anywhere from 10 down to 3 reach, with 55 or 65 resistance low-spots between intervals. It seems to directly correlate to cycling for everything except the angles of the hips and torso when we apply the power. And I didn't really notice that until Thursday night / Friday morning while in bed where I was moaning and groaning from the aches, lol. Friday was the day of lessons learned
- a complete washout from the pain where I basically didn't leave the house all day except to take the Diverge to the bike shop for a new headset. 2022 Diverge and the headset is already notched.
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Mambo Danny
Member
STOP.USING.GOOGLEMAPS... (at least for off-pavement excursions) Seriously... they have put so many people in harm's way because they falsely show roads and paths that historically do not exist or may only exist in absolutely perfect environmental conditions.
A Hiker Is Lucky to Be Alive After Following a Fake Trail on Google Maps
If you want reliable reference maps, use Trailforks and/or RWGPS with their global heat maps. Trailforks subscription is cheap and allows use of offline maps that provide a bearing and position with the phone app.
Thank you for the suggestions! Duly noted.
Though... where would the death-defying adventure be if it wasn't for the rides it has ruined? Like that one gravel ride I had planned where Google Maps satellite showed a bridge we could cross ... that was no longer there when we rode to it. Had I thought to plan the ride cross-refeencing Strava satellite maps, it showed the updated scene without the bridge being there.
Edit: Downloaded Trailforks and am in the 14-day free trial. Sure enough it does show the correct trails without showing non-trails. Fucking Google employees are city-slickers who never leave the comforts of their cities.
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Psycholist
Where has my rum gone?
BTDT...
In fact, I still hold the KOM on a 63 mile "segment" that circumnavigates a National Wildlife Refuge and skirts around an active Navy bombing range... thanks Strava...
In fact, I still hold the KOM on a 63 mile "segment" that circumnavigates a National Wildlife Refuge and skirts around an active Navy bombing range... thanks Strava...
It's been a few years, but Google Maps has led drivers to believe they can cross Grand Canyon, and there are tragic stories attributed to using road navigation in Death Valley, like the German family.
I don't know about all that (lol), but in my experience, their base maps definitely don't cover any backcountry areas reliably. Satellite imagery is okay, though. I have other options for that, like Gaia. I was surprised that Gaia displays as well as it does via Android Auto on my car's in-dash screen. It's weird to be driving along and see satellite coverage along my route.
I wonder if we'll see AI help drill through the increasing number of possible map layers to make it easier to build highly detailed routes that are specific to a mode of transportation. "Give me route options from A to B that are entirely off-pavement, are suitable for a gravel bike, and don't exceed 7% grade. No motorized traffic allowed." That seems like a task suited to AI assistance.
Mambo Danny
Member
Well that's a fucking cool idea. My fear is being locked in by AI or mapping apps that would only label places others have biked. Dwight (@Bappo on ADV) and I drove up to a public sand road that we are willing to bet no modern cyclist has been on (I'm sure some roadies have ridden past it on the paved road, but it even looks like a closed-off road so not many visitors, and in the middle of nowhere). If one were brave enough, and if the farm workers weren't in the fields on that given day (they weren't there when I was there - I think it may have been some holiday weekend), it seemed like it would lead to other connections... but those paths would be farm grass or farm paths ... and maybe by that point trespassing...
Scoping out new trails is smart. That's a coin toss on whether a couple of cyclists would bother the workers or not. It's not like you're ripping things up in a SxS. I'd ask permission to avoid potential problems, but that's me. I love a good wander, though.
I camped on the backside of Craters of the Moon National Monument and decided to wander out of the area to Carey, ID. I ended up on farm & ranch roads cutting through open fields. There were no signs and my Garmin street GPS wasn't helping, but my Garmin inReach Explorer+ actually had some of the the unnamed roads on it. I'm guessing they were actually named in some way, like many rural roads in the U.S. were uniquely named as part of 911 service expansion.
I camped on the backside of Craters of the Moon National Monument and decided to wander out of the area to Carey, ID. I ended up on farm & ranch roads cutting through open fields. There were no signs and my Garmin street GPS wasn't helping, but my Garmin inReach Explorer+ actually had some of the the unnamed roads on it. I'm guessing they were actually named in some way, like many rural roads in the U.S. were uniquely named as part of 911 service expansion.
Richard
Active member
Out for a ride today after the holiday sickness has past. Clear lungs, clear skies.
Route got cut short thanks to construction at the beach. The repaving project pushed me onto the river trail on the way out. Came back and thought I could catch the beach trail. Nope. They have that blocked from the nearer parking lot. Brilliant design.
A good ride at any rate.
Route got cut short thanks to construction at the beach. The repaving project pushed me onto the river trail on the way out. Came back and thought I could catch the beach trail. Nope. They have that blocked from the nearer parking lot. Brilliant design.
A good ride at any rate.
Richard
Active member
When I'm looking at routes in a new area I use my Rally Navigator app on my Mac. I can not only create a roadbook, but also an open GPX file, or simple GPX file. Either can open in Guru Maps Pro.
The Rally Navigator tool has both terrain maps and easy swap to satellite view for checking reality.
One thing to note is the date of any data. Nothing is going to be real time. For that one would need some serious horsepower.
The Rally Navigator tool has both terrain maps and easy swap to satellite view for checking reality.
One thing to note is the date of any data. Nothing is going to be real time. For that one would need some serious horsepower.
Staying with friends in South Australia. It is supposed to be warm and sunny, but it windy and miserable. This morning the wind was 30-40kph. Hooray for sheltered hills. We just had to put up with the misting rain. We rode about 70km between Mount Barker and Adelaide City and back. An hour each way in hammer mode. Mid ride we poured coffee down our throats and scoffed truly awful croissants and were moving again before we cooled down.
Madmx
Well-known member
Tired of breaking chains. Jeez so back to old school 415..wish the parts were easier to source. Half link smash link!
Mambo Danny
Member
How much wattage are you putting out on your sprints?!
Mambo Danny
Member
That seems to be a cross-country car rally racing app - is that what you use?
Richard
Active member
Bikes too. Works very well for ages. The Rally Navigator allows me to place the track exactly where I want. Unlike how Strava used to create routes where it would leap away from the bike trail to streets. I fought that thing for the greater part of a day and gave up.
They feature of being able to swap from a top map to satellite view and back again while the track is stretched and fitted to the real trail/road.
Rally Navigator exists as both a cloud-based app workable off the web and as a downloadable app. I use the downloaded app on my MacBook Air. I've used a handful of GPX editing applications. The Rally Navigator being the easiest to deal with.
It is not perfect. There are some niggles here and there. Once I get into the groove of how to build a track since I don't do it often enough to remember my workflow, I'm pretty quick at it.
I have found that I can export a saved waypoint from say Guru Maps Pro to Rally Navigator so I have a say a start and end point to begin. This creates two points and the rubber band line between that can then be fitted to trail or road. The tool is meant to create a roadbook or detailed turn by turn instructions.
Very much like we began navigating way back with paper maps and hand written directions. The roadbook, or roll chart is just the enhanced version of the old, "Go down here two miles east then make a right, (south) at the yellow barn that is painted blue since John sold the land to his brother in-law Frank".
For our Garmin/Wahoo head units we don't need the roadbook, so a gpx file can be saved and sent to the unit. In Wahoo this is simple. I save mine to cloud locations. I use both Android navigation and IOS, so have Google Drive space as well as iCloud. Very easy to deal with in Guru Maps Pro on either device.
This is a Rally Navigator created roadbook running on DMD2 app on a Samsung Tab A-7 Lite.
Guru Maps Pro running on an iPhone.
In portrait mode with tracks visible:
When following a track, the app will tell me to "return to route" when I go off track.
I always carry my phone when going anywhere since all my brains are held within it. Well, anything I need to remember and my ability to contact help if that is required. The new iPhone 14Pro includes a satellite-connected rescue feature similar to In-Reach or Spot.
I checked this when off grid in Utah last summer. The above screen shot displays 3 Step Hideaway where I stayed, it is very much off the grid. Yet satellite connection was available. Right now this feature is free.
Nice setup, Richard. It's going to be interesting to see how much impact the full release of DMD3 has on moto-navigation. Do you use a bar controller with your tablet?
I keep hoping that competition will force Garmin to clean house and truly unify their backend software. Give me one app with one library for my watch, cycling computer, backcountry nav unit, and motorcycle nav unit. Selecting a device and a file from the library should automatically allow the file to be fully utilized by that device. Any editing of a file shouldn't create conflicts with any device.
As it is, it's like Garmin looked at the closed architecture used by Apple and said, "Make sure we don't do anything like that!"
I keep hoping that competition will force Garmin to clean house and truly unify their backend software. Give me one app with one library for my watch, cycling computer, backcountry nav unit, and motorcycle nav unit. Selecting a device and a file from the library should automatically allow the file to be fully utilized by that device. Any editing of a file shouldn't create conflicts with any device.
As it is, it's like Garmin looked at the closed architecture used by Apple and said, "Make sure we don't do anything like that!"
Richard
Active member
Yes, I have the adventure controller. It works with DMD2 and Guru Maps Pro.
Garmin exists primarily for aircraft. That is their main business. Everything else is just there.
I figure to eliminate the DMD2 because the old 990R is not compliant with the engine metrics part of the tool and I'm unlikely to bother with roadbooks much in the future. The Tab A7-Lite is very limited as far as storage. DMD2 doesn't use the memory card for maps or routes or roadbooks so becomes a memory hog.
Guru Maps Pro store maps on the card just fine.
Playing with roadbooks led me to DMD2 initially because I was looking for a bar controller then playing with the Beta app I liked how they handled roadbooks, which is specifically why DMD2 was created, not as a map-based navigation tool.
The controller is the three red lights and toggle stick next to the left mirror on the bar.