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Electric Okay or Die Hard ICE?

matty said:
Bright is good but going dim is not bright at all, and remember historicaly and even in the high tech modern era, power pack weight is a big negative in Ev Power, and if you want range that goes with more weight. Not good we need light long life cheap battery tech to make the evs real ICE competitors.
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Electric lines below the road surface and small batteries in the vehicles is an alternative that would work in many cases.
I think it will be a long wait before there's a battery that is comparable in weight/size/energy to a tank of diesel.
 
Anders- said:
Electric lines below the road surface and small batteries in the vehicles is an alternative that would work in many cases.
I think it will be a long wait before there's a battery that is comparable in weight/size/energy to a tank of diesel.
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It will . And rightly or wrongly i am not convinced it will ever be achieved. And do not for a second forget the charging times involved and that includes the quote FAST CHARGING OUTLETS.
Guy martin highlights the issues with up to date EVs. ill stick with diesel at moment.
 
matty said:
Bright is good but going dim is not bright at all, and remember historicaly and even in the high tech modern era, power pack weight is a big negative in Ev Power, and if you want range that goes with more weight. Not good we need light long life cheap battery tech to make the evs real ICE competitors.
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Energy density is why Lithium-ion is one of the "least bad" option for EVs today. Lithium-iron is longer lasting and doesn't use Cobalt. But it takes more space, adds weight, and uses more Lithium.
The reason Lithium is used this much has to do with available quantities, and its position on the periodic table. That is something the competing battery cells have to overcome. Probably using complicated technology, but that raises the price. It also costs big piles of money to build factories to make those high tech battery cells.
 
Amos Malone said:
Energy density is why Lithium-ion is one of the "least bad" option for EVs today. Lithium-iron is longer lasting and doesn't use Cobalt. But it takes more space, adds weight, and uses more Lithium.
The reason Lithium is used this much has to do with available quantities, and its position on the periodic table. That is something the competing battery cells have to overcome. Probably using complicated technology, but that raises the price. It also costs big piles of money to build factories to make those high tech battery cells.
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Thanks for the insight, and from what you say the cost environmental impact of obtaining the stuff, the factories yet more expense. Its seemingly never ending and then we got the whole charging thing to include in the equation on oil gas nulear or the less prolific wind and water generation, its not like the electricity comes out of a magic socket in the wall it still needs fosil fuels to produce it and the heavy expensive inefficient cars trucks and bikes dont use those rechargess efficiently or cost effectively as a dirty diesel.
I think by the time you added everything into the mix with EVs the EVs global footprint could well be a full on global stampede.
The way the Greens etc have bullied the worlds governments to force the EV deal long before its ready or the tech to make it function cost effectively or environmentaly etc even exists stinks of money making not a real concern about the environmental issues.
We do need to act on global environmental issues i agree , but all i ask id the EV of today the right candidate for the post. I say yet again vote diesel .

You tell them Neil.
 
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matty said:
We do need to act on global environmental issues i agree , but all i ask id the EV of today the right candidate for the post. I say yet again vote diesel .

You tell them Neil.
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I don't think it is either or, but a combination of technologies. IMHO a diesel hybrid is the best of both worlds, at least with current technology. This also works with needed trucks and people who drive distances.
 
I think small light bycicles and push scooters for city use would work, something that could charge via solar or wind or even off peak power gen. Better if pedal assisted E bike to help energy consumption.
Hybrid diesels in havy trucks to get the torque of the diesel electric locos on a scaled down way. Highly efficient governed small light yet torquey diesel running motors to drive trucks will give better fuel consunption than giving the driver the luxury of a throttle he can abuse and waste fuel and needlessly risk HC emissions.
Run only Haulage Trucks when logistically Rail can not deliver, but rail hubs and short range light trucks Hybrid diesels on Renewable bio fuel .
Free Public transport Frequent and well appointed and secure terminus facilities and reliable infrastructure . will get lots off the roads. Sure free public transport will cost but just how serrious are our governments about the global issues we apparently face today.?
It would be money well spent, But in reallity this will never happen because a global environmental issue does exist, but the governments the world over know full well whatever little if any effect going super green brings it will be no way near enout differance. The Planet has been changing dramaticaly for millenia and equaly fast too. What makes THIS CURENT CROP OF OVER INFLATED GREENS BELIEVE THEY WILL MAKE ONE IOTA OF A DIFFERENCE .?
One thing i never fully got was why the $X$ suvs and Light trucks Needed 2.5 litre and bigger diesel turbos. 2 litre turbos will eat the job of propeling trucks around empty or carying up to a ton, or typical trailer work with 30cwt payload.
In Uk gallons a 2.5 D4D hilux double cab will return 25 to 30MPG, a 2 litre VW amarock will in the real world return 40mpg and the 1.9 diesel Issuzu D Max a similar MPG. Why the Heavier thirstier 2.5 that makes only similat HP and a negligible gain in torque.
If those in other countries paid what we here in the UK pay for our tax heavy diesel fuel trust me you would all be thinking exactly like me.
 
matty said:
It will . And rightly or wrongly i am not convinced it will ever be achieved. And do not for a second forget the charging times involved and that includes the quote FAST CHARGING OUTLETS.
Guy martin highlights the issues with up to date EVs. ill stick with diesel at moment.
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There was a story about a guy with a brand new eHummer. Using his 20Amp 120v garage plug, it would take five days to fully charge it.
 
Electricity is not cheap anymore in the Uk, and the maths simple as they are are being ignored by the EV pundits.
Diesel is the clear option in the real world.

a little EV insight,

 
I've seen people talk about roads that charge the vehicle and it sounds all peachy keen. Then I go drive on the roads around here and wonder how in the hell people think that is feasible. The roads and bridges in the US are in a pretty sorry state and they aren't going to get better any time soon. If they can't even keep current roadways in decent shape how are they going to build/maintain roadways with power grids incorporated in them?

EVs completely replacing gas powered personal vehicles any time soon is a fantasy. Like I said before, it would be a logistical nightmare. Technically possible? Maybe. Realistically possible? Not a chance. That said, I read over and over how EVs can't do this or that and charging stations are a joke yadda yadda yadda. Ok, that's true for some places/people. But if I take a serious look at how I use my current vehicle, there is nothing about an electric vehicle that would change what I do. Charging stations? Why would I ever go to one of those? My vehicle sits in my garage for at least 12 hours a day most days. It would be fully charged every morning when I woke up. I can't recall the last time I drove it over 200 miles in a day. And I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to charge it on a 20amp 120v garage plug any more than I'd be trying to fill the gas tank on my Jeep using the 1 gallon gas can I have in my garage. But what about that 1% of days this isn't true? I'd have to figure something else out. Just like I have to do now when I want to tow a project car 1200 miles over mountains and back home. Should I have bought an F250 for that once every 5-15 years situation? Some seem to think so.

The people on the extremes of both sides all sound crazy to me (just like they do in every other aspect of life) but they are the ones who get all the press. And while it seems to be the in thing, I'm not picking a side and blindly following it. The tech may not be where it needs to be for universal domination, but that's to be expected. The early EVs for sale right now aren't ideal state vehicles, but name one technology that was 100% perfected right out of the box?

EV technology is pretty cool. Bring it on. The politics related to EVs are pretty fucked up, which should be of no shock.

I don't hate EVs because of what politicians are trying to do with them, and I don't love them because I think they are going to save the world. They are one hell of an interesting option that can build their own market without legislation pushing them along.

I can still like EVs even if:
I don't think they'll save the Earth
I don't want them to be legislated into popularity
They don't do every possible thing I can imagine I may one day need in a vehicle
They don't sound like a two valve air cooled Ducati on over run
 
"Green" snow-clearing vehicles cause problems in norway. After 1 hour of usage they must be charged for 4 hours - clearly not a prime candidate for going electric :D

www.nettavisen.no

El-maskiner skaper brøytetrøbbel: Må lades i fire timer etter én times bruk

Brøytebilsjåfører forteller til Nettavisen om frustrasjonen over å måtte bruke mer tid på å lade el-brøytebilen enn å få vekk snøen.
www.nettavisen.no www.nettavisen.no
 
I hr is a parking lot in the north. Usually the trucks use salt for the ballast. The salt destroys everything..especially electrical components. But fixing the electrics for a decade bought me a different life in the south. I never want to mess with a plow truck again. But batteries, motors, controllers and salt do not mix. The old potted solid state controllers would last decades but the digital controllers would be wiped out in 6 months. The controllers are inside the cab. Salt vapors from work boots is all it took.
 
The following article denounces the hypocrisy from Italian lawmakers who pledge for an all electric but stick to ICE. It's a case of do what I say, not as I do.

www.motociclismo.it

Green in parlamento, fuori a benzina!

Mentre l’Europa ci proietta verso un 2035 a zero emissioni “costringendoci” all’elettrico, i nostri politici si guardano bene dall’acquistare moto o scooter a batterie
www.motociclismo.it www.motociclismo.it
 
I'd own an e-bike, but I can't afford a new bike, let alone a more expensive e-bike. I did do a test ride on a Zero SR last summer (at Americade) and had a lot of fun. It did everything I'd want a bike to do, except for range. I live in the city and it would make a lot of sense for city riding, but do more long distance riding outside of the city than short hops within.
 
The EV's technology is very interesting and the performance is amazing. One would very likely handle 90% of my driving or riding. Occasionally I need to go farther then the EV's range, so I'd need to keep a ICE alternative for that.

My biggest gripe is the cost. When they finally get down to the price range in which I buy vehicles, I think they'd probably need the batteries replaced, increasing the cost.

So I'll be sticking with my ICE vehicles for a while.
 
I'm not anti EV but I am anti government mandates trying to force us into them. When EV's become affordable and have enough range to actually go somewhere I'll consider buying one. E motorcycles and scooters still have a long way to go before they would meet my needs.
 
klaviator said:
I'm not anti EV but I am anti government mandates trying to force us into them. When EV's become affordable and have enough range to actually go somewhere I'll consider buying one. E motorcycles and scooters still have a long way to go before they would meet my needs.
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GIVEN today's or the reliant future technology....The mandates and this date 2035 is achievable only at a board meeting table not in reality, any partial move by the few in society affluent enough to initially buy EVs wont be any where near enough to impact climate change in our failing planet.
That is of course assuming EVs ever could help if fully adopted in the first place.
we are where we are now with the planet, its going to take millions of years or perhaps massive climate change brought about by global catastrophe like meteor impact ( Ice age dinosours extinction etc) etc to change the sittuation we find our selves in now EVs wont cut it or in anyway get near anything tangible.
But lets roll with the 2035 deal for ca moment, look at the billions of people worldwide in todays world who need ICEs to function right here now Today. Billions of them.
Even if we ignore everything but road cars and trucks , we could never produce the EVs required even by 2065 and thats assuming the normal working family or busines or hauliers could afford the cost of a move to Ev .
The cost to to the consumer and ecconony. the world can not aford EVs the tech is not there to sustain the use of such vehicles in the world of today.
Cars trucks the world over are not all about new sales, the world spins on second hand i am 65 my dad died in 2015 at 97 and neither of us had ever had a brand new car or tractor or motorbilke , we never aspired to buying new, and billions of others worldwide are exactly the same.
Look at myself again My/ our cars. Generaly get the wife a half decent car 2016 skoda superb estate ar moment. .
Me everything i got or we own is for sale right here and now. its how i do things was brought up lived my whole like farms and dealing cars bikes tractors anything where there was a sale and i understood it.
A week ago i purchased a 20010 Mini One Diesel (1.6 Crappy BMW N47 engine 90hp) with 147000 miles on two owner car , last owner 11years. Non runner it failed to start in the cold in january. Owner got ripped off by a shaddy diagnostics garage and a mate of mine bought it for scrap money. I bought it for £400. It was a canshaft position sensor and oxodised Fuel pressure rail sensor not sending a signal to the low cpressure pump in the tank, hense low rail pressure injectors dont work/ No start but cranks.
Now saga over Its a running driving small car i might run or keep, mke this old mini, and y point here is simple. Where am i going to buy a tesla or even an hyundai ionis for £400 in 2036 when they are 13 years old and be able to fix it for £20 and a bit of time with a multimeeter and OBD2 Live data view.
Even by 2035 the supply
and demand will have used EV pricing vway higher than ICEs and assuming i or others like me grasped the technology 100% its just not going to happen. Billions of people the world over will be radically changing what they do for plain and simple transport to get around in the world.
the Production of these EVs over the next 12 years will be earth damaging, the changeover to EVs will involve new facilities the power pack production the increase in production all will have big negative carbon footprint impacts.
It could be argued that much of the production base already exists from ICes but though true up to a point, the fact is new facilities and production will take place globally, and it is my conservative view that this production flury will negate any dubious advantages EVs might bring to the table Immediately.
Now the caviat to all this, We still have to charge these EVs its not a magic plug in a wall somewhere down the line is a smokey biomass power station oil or even coal or nuclear its all contributing it will need more power more equiptment it all needs making installing and dont forget the paying for bit, electric generation companies are not charities they need and want money.
Top it all off we are still gooing to be looking at power pack unsuitability low range any normal highway or interstate motorway miles eat range on these EVs they need braking slower more congested short bursts of consumption to get anywhere near the factory claimed ranges. It might be such use fits in with your life, but motorway mile munching is a way of life for most and EVs hate this use.
Lets look now at time to charge. say on a long trip, its going to make some auful long trips aufully a hell of a lot longer and remember out from home charging is astronomically expensive.
AH! I hear you say but My honda EV is great in downtown urbanvile cleanairfornia . and my company have car park charging and its free, i just drive to work park and my honda Mark from accounts and sadie from distribution charge their hyundais next to mine free and dirtyb dave from logistics has to pay for his filthy diesel in his F150 .
Great thats awesome. but will greg the manager buy your replacement power pack in four years when its kaput and will the share holders still be so green when the car park is empty of carbon burners and full of EVs all charging through the day. the power bill is going to land on the mat. AND " How much" . Then you watch you will pay.
AH! vgot you again matty you cheapskate planet hating moron i will just lease my cars they will be gone come power pack replacement time. ng green you are prepared to sacrifice other things just to apear green even though its of very negligable help if anything to the environment/ planet. Then fine go with it.
Me ill just keep on ruining the planet, until the world wakes up from this pointless impractical EV wet dream, and acctualy starts getting real and produces synthetic fuels or hydrogen in ICEs be they conventional or hybrids. . Finaly I like toyota they made the hylux and corola i have had many good solid things, not a stupid firm toyota by any means. Ask yourself why they have gone hydrogen gen for a moment, could it just be they kind of worked out like this ignorant north country lad EVs just are not practical at the moment and probably for many years to come IF ever. Just sayin.
Fine, but your kids still need feeding house maintaining bills paying if you are conited so much to bei
 
I was expecting the Big Four to unveil some electric two wheelers at EICMA. I guess they're not ready. Kawasaki is currently selling an eNinja that's the equivalent of a 125 cc but the range is just not there (I think it's 25 miles on a single charge). The eNinja also doesn't have the universal swappable battery. Yes it has 2 removable batteries but they're not the universally adopted battery everyone will be using. So how much longer then? Honda had talked about introducing as many as 10 electric vehicles by 2025. Can they meet their own deadline?
 
The big 4 has to compete with drop ship ebikes and e scooters that can be purchased without dealer fees. I don't think the big 4 is in any hurry to compete. The grom was well over a decade late to the minibike movement.
 
I've driven a couple of Teslas. They're fun and great for beating red lights. Every hockey puck in a Mopar thinks their shitty Dodge can hang with the acceleration of the Tesla. They can't. I don't see the appeal of EV motorcycles. Their range is awful and warranty language is even worse. Any manufacturer other than Energica you'll void the warranty for attempting to do your own work on the bike. Those EV motorcycles can't go to any shop either. The shops have to be an approved one for work to be done. Take it to an unapproved spot and your warranty won't mean shit. Zero's engineers designed a neat thing but the marketing team of the company hijacked everything that could have been great. Zero has the worst warranty out of all their competitors. Energica will allow the owner to dot their own work and even send detailed emails with pics and directions on how to change parts.
 
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