matty
Border raider.
duno, but could sound wankelish. if wankelish is even a thing, short answer no idea.
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Preferred engine configuration.
- Thread starter matty
- Start date
I wish we would see more progress in this area. Electric power is not as efficient as it needs to be, and, there is not enough of it.
matty
Border raider.
Lectric is not magic it has to be made by something, its heavy in its car bike truck user mode. The power pack tech is just not ready yet, we will all be aware of this if people doubt these words now in about 10 or 15 years we will look back at the curent crop of EVs and scratch our heads at how woefully useless and inpractical they realy are.
JimVonBaden
Kool Aid!
Nothing is more efficient than electric, but the battery technology isn't there for motorcycles.
I think we are one battery innovation away from seeing a major shift in transportation as we know it.
I used to race RC cars as a kid. Nicad was the only battery option. If you wanted the fastest car nitro was the ticket. In modern times the electrics have surpassed the nitros in performance with LiPo batteries. If the next leap in batteries is as dramatic as Nicad to lipo we’ll see some real improvements.
matty
Border raider.
Although i broadly agree with your opinion on this, evs are just not the answer to the planets problems.
We need to burn less fuel , be that directly in cars bikes etc, or generating power for evs, which is frankly a waste of time in real terms.
Matty is old decrepit set in his ways, and yet not stupid enough to believe the EV propoganda. As we get ever closer to the worlds all ev no carbon emission caretc end dates just watch the back pedaling and u turning, when the real reality of EVs bites home in the real world, both on practicality and not forgeting costs.
This video is not perfect but its a decent insight as such and possibly eye opening for some.
JimVonBaden
Kool Aid!
I agree with this position! We seem to have a lot of big company interests working on this!
JimVonBaden
Kool Aid!
I also tend to agree with this. Clean fuel for electricity generation is critical to make electric transportation long term viable.
I totally agree. I think mandating EVs is premature at this point. I love IC engines. I still have some nitro RC cars even though they aren't the best performers anymore; they still bring a tear to my eye... not because of all the nostalgic memories but because nitro fumes burn your eyes.
That said, at some point having a EV with a future-gen battery technology that can charge as quickly as filling a gas tank, weighs very little, inexpensive, perhaps could even be molded as structural members allowing for flexible designs, etc, etc. That will be some interesting times.
matty
Border raider.
I have long held the view that a power station output equivalent if you like of modern 2022 diesel or petrol cars is better for the environment than the 1960s power station responsible for charging hundreds of evs with some emissions upgrades perhaps in the 2010s if your lucky.
And we must never lose sight of the fact even wind farms and such are not carbon free the production footprint couplrd with the relatively low output and life expectancy means their carbon footprint is not just as green as they look when you investigate the small print.
Nothings a free lunch, but burning less of anything is IMHO as good a place to start as anywhere. Use cars less, make smaller as in lighter slower cars built for economy not power, and no luxury items weighing them down and creating bigger footprint to produce. Cars that exist need really wearing out not disguarding on fassion or fad. A car that exists costs no more carbon to make, and only a tiny bit to maintain. We are as a species way too affluent and self important to really help the environment we live in. We would rather play at it and pretend we care and are doing something positive.
.
I didn't mean to side track this thread with all this electric talk.
I've only owned two MC engine configurations; I-4 and Singles.
I think engine configuration should follow function over form depending on the intended application of the motorcycle. At the extremes; there's a reason you don't see multi-cylinder MX bikes or 1,500cc thumpers in touring bikes. Bottom line, my preferred engine config is the one that best suits the purpose that I'm buying a bike for.
I've only owned two MC engine configurations; I-4 and Singles.
I think engine configuration should follow function over form depending on the intended application of the motorcycle. At the extremes; there's a reason you don't see multi-cylinder MX bikes or 1,500cc thumpers in touring bikes. Bottom line, my preferred engine config is the one that best suits the purpose that I'm buying a bike for.
Tripped1
Well-known member
That is simply not the case.
The most efficient modern ICE (gas or diesel) might reach 30% power efficiency. That is about the same as a 60s era coal plant. Most gas-turbine plants built in the last 40 years are over 45% efficiency, and modern ones are in 60% range. So yes, charging a battery off of the grid is going to be 50-100% more efficient than an internal combustion engine.
When you go to battery this becomes even more of a stark contrast, as DC motors run in 85% efficiency range (again vice 25-30%)
So when you consider that there is ~34kWh of energy in a gallon of gas, those big 100kWh batteries that push an F-150 lightening or Tesla Model S long range into 300 mile ranges are the energy equivalent of less than three gallons of gas.
Amos Malone
Well-known member
Some 2 cents.
It was in the news recently that due to efficiency increase in latest ICE (up to 40%) that "Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts" (emissionsanalytics). That is something where EV (due to being heavier) will pollute even more of.
Coal is much more greenhouse-gas producing than the gas or diesel used in ICE.
The grid loses considerable part of the electricity produced in power plants.
You also lose part of the energy put in the battery, most noticeable as heat during charge and discharge. Less noticeably through self-discharge.
The least polluting vehicle is the one that uses least fuel and lasts longest.
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Tripped1
Well-known member
Some 2 cents.
It was in the news recently that due to efficiency increase in latest ICE (up to 40%) that "Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts" (emissionsanalytics). That is something where EV (due to being heavier) will pollute even more of. Those unnecessarily large US pickups also pollute quite a lot of that.
Coal is much more greenhouse-gas producing than the gas or diesel used in ICE.
The grid loses considerable part of the electricity produced in power plants.
You also lose part of the energy put in the battery, most noticeable as heat during charge and discharge. Less noticeably through self-discharge.
The least polluting vehicle is the one that uses least fuel and lasts longest.
Detestably.
The 40% figure comes from exactly one motor, a 2L Toyota, laudable but not exactly run of the mill yet.....I am sure they are piling them in tons of cars, but in the US that isn't the common configuration, not with the F-150 being the most sold vehicle period year over year for a long while.
Likewise, particulate emissions and greenhouse emissions are two different beasts, however while I am sure that breathing little bits of rubber is not idea, microplastics, PCB, latent anti-biotics etc. are as bad or worse. Though more local, they won't destroy entire biome.
With the current lithium tech self discharge is really seriously small, 2-5% per month, raw battery cycles have a much greater effect on LiPO chemistries.
Its a given that there are losses man can't make a perfect circuit (or motor) otherwise we would be getting all of our power from capacitor/choke tank circuits that once charged ran forever.
Amos Malone
Well-known member
The Toyota engine has a claimed 41% thermal efficiency in hybrid use. Nissan claims to be designing engine that reaches 50% efficiency. Mazda aims for 56% for their next generation Skyactive-3 engines. As long as electricity for EV is made by burning coals or gas this means ICE will start to leave EV in the dust when it comes to efficiency and consequently pollution.
Mercedes makes a nice 1.6 liter V6 engine that has over 50% efficiency and over 1000 hp. You can see it in action on TV about every other weekend, next to similar engines from Renault, Honda and Ferrari.
US is pretty much tailing the world when it comes to efficiency (or if they like to be leading proud, they are pretty much leading in inefficiency). As in how many gallons of fuel are used to cover X miles per person. It stands to reason that the more gallons of fuel you burn to move your butt, the more pollution you create. It does not really matter if the pollution is in the vehicle, or at a powerplant out of sight. It all ends on the same planet, same human life support system.
93% of energy in West Virginia was made with coal in 2019. Same year there were 12 states where more than 50% of electricity is made from burning coal. Gas is also greenhouse emitting energy.
Mercedes makes a nice 1.6 liter V6 engine that has over 50% efficiency and over 1000 hp. You can see it in action on TV about every other weekend, next to similar engines from Renault, Honda and Ferrari.
US is pretty much tailing the world when it comes to efficiency (or if they like to be leading proud, they are pretty much leading in inefficiency). As in how many gallons of fuel are used to cover X miles per person. It stands to reason that the more gallons of fuel you burn to move your butt, the more pollution you create. It does not really matter if the pollution is in the vehicle, or at a powerplant out of sight. It all ends on the same planet, same human life support system.
93% of energy in West Virginia was made with coal in 2019. Same year there were 12 states where more than 50% of electricity is made from burning coal. Gas is also greenhouse emitting energy.
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Tripped1
Well-known member
That is the point that you are glazing over. Power production is significantly more efficient than an ICE. Even using your edge cases as the vehicle fleet, you make to assumptions that completely ignore the entire picture
1) using coal as a baseline is an erroneous assumption, even in the US that is a less than 20% of production, with natural gas making up the majority of the 60% total from fossile fuels. The rest is nuclear and renewable (hydro, solar, wind) Thus if coal is 20% of production with 33% efficiency, gas-turbine running in the 50% range, call that 44ish% efficacy for 60% of the electric produced ...the rest is carbon neutral nuclear mechanical or solar, so 0 loss So that is 78% thermal efficiency Grid loss is estimated in the 5% range, so that would 73% thermal efficiency fossil fuels.
Because the power grid is not (usually) sole source, you likely have all of the above. Mine is but I live on a little island in the middle of the Pacific.
2) No vehicle fleet is running F1 engines in numbers that matter. Likewise that Toyota you sited wasn't sold until 2018, and that Skyactive X in 2019. What percentage of the fleet are those TWO models? Are they enough to matter? Maybe. Even going from 30% (a commonly cited upper end) and giving an additional 5% ...which is optimistic to say the least... your EV is still twice as efficient even when powered 100% off of the grid.
..and that is just thermal efficiency
When you start with miles traveled per kWa that ratio gets bent even further, there is significantly less drive line EV than there is in any ICE vehicle. Its not a contest.
Amos Malone
Well-known member
One of the points you haven't mentioned is how much more it pollutes making EV than ICE. According to Volvo the breakeven point is at 90 000. With ICE becoming much cleaner in the near future the breakeven point could soon rise to beyond estimated lifecycle of new vehicles.
Tesla guarantees their Panasonic batteries for 100,000 miles. If they fail after that the car is basically totalled.
It's not a contest. Both have their place, but politics are skewing the picture badly.
Tesla guarantees their Panasonic batteries for 100,000 miles. If they fail after that the car is basically totalled.
It's not a contest. Both have their place, but politics are skewing the picture badly.
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Tripped1
Well-known member
90,000 what? Miles? Kilometers?
If its kilometers, the average US driver does between 12,000 and 14,000 miles a year aiming at the middle that 21,000km annually....or four and a half years. At which point the EV is saving on carbon emissions. The vehicles in my household are in order 43, 28, 21, 8 and 6.
That break point will move closer to construction as battery tech advances. Basically the race to perfect solid state batteries.
Which if I am not mistaken Mercedes already has out in industrial applications.
Graphene technology also has a lot of promise as well https://www.eetimes.com/the-evolution-of-graphene-batteries/
Tripped1
Well-known member
So far as actually engine (not motor) configuration goes.
State of tune has more to do with it to me than actual configuration.
I-4 on bandit.....pretty dull, on a S1000RR bending space/time which is seriously fun.
Triples? The FZ09 (assuming someone fixed the tuning) or the old 955i Triumph? Yes please, the 1050 Triumph rolled with for so long. I couldn't stand it
Twins? Give me a KTM (my actual favorite toy) or a Ducati Testastretta..so tasty. On Harley, keep the tractor.
Thumpers are a bit more complicated, but basically the same. 250 4 stroke, boring, 250 two-smoker, fuck yes. That being said the 110cc 4 stroke in my wife's DAX is hilariously fun....but largely because its so silly riding around a bike that is all of 3 foot long and two foot high
State of tune has more to do with it to me than actual configuration.
I-4 on bandit.....pretty dull, on a S1000RR bending space/time which is seriously fun.
Triples? The FZ09 (assuming someone fixed the tuning) or the old 955i Triumph? Yes please, the 1050 Triumph rolled with for so long. I couldn't stand it
Twins? Give me a KTM (my actual favorite toy) or a Ducati Testastretta..so tasty. On Harley, keep the tractor.
Thumpers are a bit more complicated, but basically the same. 250 4 stroke, boring, 250 two-smoker, fuck yes. That being said the 110cc 4 stroke in my wife's DAX is hilariously fun....but largely because its so silly riding around a bike that is all of 3 foot long and two foot high
A friend has an old BSA. Some big thumper from the '40's. First time I saw it run was on its centerstand on a concrete floor. You had to keep an eye on it, because it would vibrate across the floor and ram itself in to whatever else was in the room if left alone 😂