Triumph TF250X

[RockyDS]

That's how Hinkley Triumph got started. They took apart a Kawasaki and copied it, so no surprise if that's exactly what they've done to get into motocross.

And in a way that's fair. After all the Japanese copied UK designs and were successful by making bikes more reliable and cheaper.

 

[Shinyribs]

True. But to be completely fair Japan had been bombed to pieces copied stuff to get on their feet, in a way. Some companies keep innovating ( I know that's a buzzword, but it fits) while others keep giving us the same old thing over and over.

Think KLR and DR vs CRF450L and KTM 500.

This is generalities, of course. All manufacturers have flagship models showing what they're capable of. Kawasaki and Suzuki produce great liter sport bikes. Speed Triples are fantastic machines. Even the DRZ400 is great for what it is, but it felt lame when Kawi put green plastics on one and claimed it.

 

[Madmx]

I wish kawi would shove a strom 1000 engine in the klr chassis while still weighing under 500lbs. That would be a machine! No need to design a new engine just a new model with an older engine.

 

[Shinyribs]

I wish kawi would shove a strom 1000 engine in the klr chassis while still weighing under 500lbs. That would be a machine! No need to design a new engine just a new model with an older engine.

Kawi could've just kept developing the 320lb KLX 650R, or slight detuned the KX450 and gave it a proper wide ratio gearbox for a sub 300lb gnarly dual sport. All sorts of "coulda been's".

 

[Madmx]

Ain't happening ..a UK ktm triumph aka China motor triumph from zongshen is not a bad thing. Sorry the big 4 doesn't know riders as well as Harley with their trikes. We are aging and need weight drops and consistency through bolt spacing like the heyday muscle car yrs with the big 3. A $35 alternator was a great thing! I am going to enjoy the possible. But never the impossible. But seriously shiny, are you going to buy a mx bike from trumpet to rock the VA mountains in enduro situations. Why not a gpx? With ktoom parts. These mfgs are under a share and share alike agreements

 

[Ridefreak]

That's how Hinkley Triumph got started. They took apart a Kawasaki and copied it, so no surprise if that's exactly what they've done to get into motocross.

And in a way that's fair. After all the Japanese copied UK designs and were successful by making bikes more reliable and cheaper.

This isn't taking something apart and copying it, they just sourced a KTM motor, cheesy for a company that developed the Hinkley series of engines, well regarded for their durability and reliability.

The idea that Triumph copied a Kawasaki is a bit of a misnomer. At the time the Hinkley engineers tore down most of the large multis getting ideas from all of them, some of the team came over from the car industry and teardowns had more to do with getting ideas to make the new motor more compact then it was to get HP or develop a valve train. Triumph got some help from Lotus engineering and some well known english engine builders for that. Starting with the Hinkley motor Triumph was the first MC manufacturer to fully adopt a modular engine design, 2 castings provided the basis for all the 3cyl models and one casting for the twins, a concept that came over from the auto industry with some of their engineers, all of the big brands do it now.

The KAW 900GPZ is the model rumored to be used as a basis for the Hinkley design but to say they copied it is like saying the KZ900 is a copy of a Honda 750/4

 

[RockyDS]

This isn't taking something apart and copying it, they just sourced a KTM motor, cheesy for a company that developed the Hinkley series of engines, well regarded for their durability and reliability.

The idea that Triumph copied a Kawasaki is a bit of a misnomer. At the time the Hinkley engineers tore down most of the large multis getting ideas from all of them, some of the team came over from the car industry and teardowns had more to do with getting ideas to make the new motor more compact then it was to get HP or develop a valve train. Triumph got some help from Lotus engineering and some well known english engine builders for that. Starting with the Hinkley motor Triumph was the first MC manufacturer to fully adopt a modular engine design, 2 castings provided the basis for all the 3cyl models and one casting for the twins, a concept that came over from the auto industry with some of their engineers, all of the big brands do it now.

The KAW 900GPZ is the model rumored to be used as a basis for the Hinkley design but to say they copied it is like saying the KZ900 is a copy of a Honda 750/4

Semantics.

 

[Shinyribs]

This isn't taking something apart and copying it, they just sourced a KTM motor

The castings aren't 100% identical, but it's an obvious clone.

I'm wondering if they aren't buying KTM clone engines from CF Moto?

Sourcing an engine from KTM would be one thing. Using a clone KTM engine feels extra cheap.

Maybe Triumph bought some tech from KTM and are designing their own castings. There's no way to know. But beings as KTM and CFMoto are in cahoots now, it seems reasonable to me that CFMoto would be selling knockoff engines to Triumph.

 

[RockyDS]

I read somewhere that Triumph might be developing a 450cc Dakar bike ...

 

[Ridefreak]

The castings aren't 100% identical, but it's an obvious clone.

I'm wondering if they aren't buying KTM clone engines from CF Moto?

Sourcing an engine from KTM would be one thing. Using a clone KTM engine feels extra cheap.

Maybe Triumph bought some tech from KTM and are designing their own castings. There's no way to know. But beings as KTM and CFMoto are in cahoots now, it seems reasonable to me that CFMoto would be selling knockoff engines to Triumph.

I agree with you, going with a clone if that's what it is is even worse (unless the bike is priced like a clone) and pricing was their goal.

I'm not impressed with Triumph's current design prowess based on what I see, especially since they hyped it up so much when they started down this road. Same impression I got from the small street bike recently released.

 

[jwaller]

I don't know why Triumph would be playing up a whole bunch of stuff about development and all that if they just used a KTM motor. Seems that would be an admission of defeat on Triumph's part and an embarrassment. I definitely see the similarities between the two engines. The Triumph looks like a clone motor, but I wanted to see if I could prove it one way or the other. Pics of the Triumph motor are pretty rare, the one above being the clearest I could find. I found a picture of the KTM motor in a bike, which appears to have been taken directly from the side. Measuring the angle between three engine mounts, maybe the Triumph isn't a direct copy, but a pretty damn similar design. Of course angles in pictures are all about perspective, so who knows?

I guess all my measurements prove I have far too much time on my hands and need a better hobby.

 

[Shinyribs]

Ain't happening ..a UK ktm triumph aka China motor triumph from zongshen is not a bad thing. Sorry the big 4 doesn't know riders as well as Harley with their trikes. We are aging and need weight drops and consistency through bolt spacing like the heyday muscle car yrs with the big 3. A $35 alternator was a great thing! I am going to enjoy the possible. But never the impossible. But seriously shiny, are you going to buy a mx bike from trumpet to rock the VA mountains in enduro situations. Why not a gpx? With ktoom parts. These mfgs are under a share and share alike agreements

I've owned Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, KTM and have watched a buddy's experience with GPX. KTM and Yamaha have been flawless where the others have been problematic. Honda the worst of the bunch.


I like the guys at my local Triumph dealership. No, I'm not interested in a MX bike. I'm watching because if Triumph puts out a woods bike I will be interested in buying one. However, if it's just going to be a KTM knockoff with black plastics I'll just stick with the original 😁

The idea of Triumph saving money by using clone engines to save customer's money is cool, but I'll be shocked if the Triumph's hit the showrooms cheaper than KTM's.

My KTM dirty bikes are both around 20 year old now. I wouldn't mind something new. But my old katooms just keeping running and running and running.

 

[Madmx]

I think new ktm and triumph motorcycles have been priced out of my sane budget. I would much rather buy a yz250f with an enduro tune and street legal status if that bike existed

 

[Ridefreak]

I think new ktm and triumph motorcycles have been priced out of my sane budget. I would much rather buy a yz250f with an enduro tune and street legal status if that bike existed

I'd have a wr450 if it had some decent tank options. It's a lot of motorcycle for the price.

 

[Shinyribs]

WR450's are smooth enough to hit the highway easily and the gearbox is wide enough that it doesn't really need a 6th if you're not trying to push it down the interstate. Sumo guys have been hammering on them for years without undue failures. Really impressive that a legit woods bike has such good road legs

 

[Madmx]

I believe yamaha of Australia converted the wr for street use. But US yamaha didn't think there was any demand for such a bike. So yamaha offers us short people dualsports instead. The tw and xt are great bikes but have cramped ergos with very dated designs. Fun in the woods but a little lacking for most experienced riders. I think yamaha has the biggest gap. Goes from tw and xt to t700.

 

[Madmx]

Yamaha should release a lightweight enduro/touring wr450. This has been mentioned for years. Maybe triumph will bore and stroke this new design into a smart design. Maybe

 

[Ridefreak]

For me the reversed motor kills it for serious dualsport use, I like everything else about the bike but a 450 would be a DS bike for me and the fuel tank situation isn't fixable in a way that I'd want to deal with.

 

[Shinyribs]

What's the problem with the reversed motor? The way the intake is up in the fuel tank?

All my 400cc-650cc thumpers have averaged 50-60mpg out on the road. That gives pretty much any dirt bike at least a 100 mile range on a stock tank. Closer to 125-150. I don't think I want to slab a WR any longer then that anyway.

But I'm not out West. I understand things are much more spread out there.

 

[Ridefreak]

What's the problem with the reversed motor? The way the intake is up in the fuel tank?

All my 400cc-650cc thumpers have averaged 50-60mpg out on the road. That gives pretty much any dirt bike at least a 100 mile range on a stock tank. Closer to 125-150. I don't think I want to slab a WR any longer then that anyway.

But I'm not out West. I understand things are much more spread out there.

As a 450 dirtbike it's one of the better ones out there. Out here it's fuel setup limits it to a local dirtbike and/or limited DS use. There's ways around the fuel range limitations but they're crude. I'm not knocking the bike, that's not what Yamaha designed it for but a wide ratio 450 should have better fuel options IMO then just 2 gallons. I run a 3 gallon all the time and occasionally a 4 gallon when it's needed. That's on a bike that gets 60mpg ds'ing. On trips I already carry the typical stuff along, I'd have to strap on at least a gallon almost every DS ride sometimes 2. Despite it's excellent suspension and everything else it has going for it it's limited for longer rides. We have a lot of local desert and the WR450 is a nice weapon for that, I've tried to follow a friend riding one and couldn't keep up but even my dirt only bike, a TPI needs a 3 gallon tank for our various rides.

Someone needs to come up with a 3.5 gallon subframe/tank setup. I'd buy a WR450 configured like that long before a new $14K KTM that also needs an $800 ecu but Im just one guy with a somewhat specific use.