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BMW R1300GS

LCGS said:
I did not assume anything.

That right to repair went out the window with no Service DVD to the public. It is that simple.

Not trying to be an ass, but you are not a authorized BMW dealer, or service center. There is no way your information can be used as a Authorized Service DVD. If they have not released any Service DVD to the public, JVB, Boxflyer, or any other source will not stand up in a warranty claim.

Now after 3 years or 36,000 miles JVB DVD's, and Boxflyer's free videos, will be all one needs.

I am not saying you don't have sources and hands on to get the information, but that will not substitute for a Service DVD in Warranty. I can not take your unauthorized DVD or a 1250 Flea Bay DVD to a dealer or BMW and say I have a Factory Service Manual, and that is how I have maintained my bike. I have nothing with a BMW emblem on it, and a serial number, like I have with my 17.5 GS.

With a BMW Service DVD with serial number, and a Haynes manual I was fearless on not having a dealer serviced bike. I had all the documentation I needed to make a dealer see I had correct, and BMW authorized information to work from.

Not trying to piss in your cereal, but if does not have a BMW Logo, and a registered Serial Number, it wont hold on a warranty claim.

We lost Right to Repair on a new motorcycle the instant they stopped releasing Service DVD's for them.
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I do agree that auto manufacturers are trying to kneecap repairs by owners. However, in the US, repairs and maintenance performed by the vehicle owner do not void a manufacturer's warranty. Sure, if an owner screws up an attempted repair, then BMW will likely deny a warranty claim for the damage caused by the owner. Say the valve stem on my BMW wheel loses its seal during the warranty period and I bung up the threads of the lug bolts when I remove the wheel in an attempt to fix the seal, then of course BMW isn't going to pay for new lug bolts. However, the fact that I tried to -- but couldn't -- repair the seal does not alter BMW's legal obligation to fix the seal.

I can see where this issue might get a little confusing if an owner relies on incorrect information published by a third-party source that ultimately contributed to the owner causing the damage. Practically though, even if an owner had a BMW FSM and followed BMW's procedure correctly yet the procedure still resulted in damage, I'm not sure how an owner could convince BMW or a dubious service manager of that.
 
TravelinLite said:
If I am not mistaken, Magnuson-Moss places the burden of proof on the manufacture.
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The proof is you have NO BMW Authorized manual or information. IMHO that give every dealer the right that leads to denied warranty work.

Look we are still footing the bill for cams and followers, and crap stators which are inferior products. What chance do you think you have on a 1300?

I see this coming into play on the new 1300 motor. With the transmission on the bottom of the motor and a shorter drive line.

Anything could have changed. From TQ values to valve clearance settings. I also wonder if cam timing tools are going to be different?

I am not against self serviced bikes as I am one! But I have a antique motor in my 17.5 GS. It is well proofed out and I have factory authorized information. That is why it never has seen a dealer.

Next time it does it will get a new driveshaft as I am going to run it to 36K before I schedule it in.

I am not in any way saying anything bad against Jim or Brad, as after 3 years you can use that information to maintain your bike worry free.

My rant is always that BMW has screwed every owner who turns their own wrench, and every independent shop out there. It is a money grab by BMW and its band of Merry Dealers. Give to the rich, so they can get richer.
 
I think you're both right.

Jim is correct, in that a dealer would have to show that whatever was involved with a warranty claim resulted from improperly performed work. It doesn't matter who did the job as long as it was done properly.

LCGS is correct, in that a lack of OEM information makes it more difficult to perform work that meets the OEM standard as defined in their service manuals. That's not to say that aftermarket information can't fill many of the gaps, but it's not the same as having an actual OEM service manual in hand.

I don't know I'd let the availability of service information decide a purchase, but it's a valid consideration. Unfortunately, it's becoming more of a problem just as the Internet should make it as easy as possible. OEMs could move it all online and charge a one-time fee for access tied to a VIN, and most people would be satisfied. Instead, it's just another subscription based money grab for most companies.
 
LCGS said:
The proof is you have NO BMW Authorized manual or information. IMHO that give every dealer the right that leads to denied warranty work.
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As TravelinLite said, that is not the case in the U.S. A dealer has to prove that whatever was done by a non-OEM approved person caused the problem. Not having OEM documentation is not proof that a job wasn't performed properly.

An extreme example would be an OEM trying to deny a warranty claim for a shorted stator because an owner replaced a turn signal bulb without referencing a FSM. The OEM would need to prove that procedure caused the stator to fail to successfully deny the claim. On its own, the lack of a FSM doesn't prove that changing a bulb killed the stator.
 
ZoomerP said:
As TravelinLite said, that is not the case in the U.S. A dealer has to prove that whatever was done by a non-OEM approved person caused the problem. Not having OEM documentation is not proof that a job wasn't performed properly.

An extreme example would be an OEM trying to deny a warranty claim for a shorted stator because an owner replaced a turn signal bulb without referencing a FSM. The OEM would need to prove that procedure caused the stator to fail to successfully deny the claim. On its own, the lack of a FSM doesn't prove that changing a bulb killed the stator
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So since they already denied stators, and cam and followers, how does that work?

You rode your bike wrong?

This is just another bullet in their gun to not own up, and cover bad parts. And a bunch or Service work for the dealers.

Again, not a Jim or a Brad thing at all. I am happy these guys contribute to the community and I have bought, and used JVB DVD on my 15 RT when I bought it.

Boxflyer gives us those videos for free, and he is a very concise, and has the best attention to detail of anyone I have ever meet.

It is BMW doing this and not a thing us as consumers can do about it. You can campaign to BMW NA but they are not giving anything away, even for proven defective parts.

Now they are keeping secrets on repair of something you own. Not that there is not information to do your own work, but will BMW accept that you could with only 3rd party information? That is my point you are boxed into a corner for 36,000 or 3 years. After that you can keep it with any information you have available.

And this is the disclaimer:
"Caution: Although every effort was made to ensure the accuracy of the information contained in this DVD it was primarily designed to enhance your knowledge of the BMW R1200 "Wethead" series motorcycle. As such, it is not meant to replace the maintenance manual or to supply complete information about each procedure covered. Any damage done to a motorcycle or personal injury resulting from the use of the DVD is solely the responsibility of the user and not the maker or seller of the DVD. Please use the DVD as a reference only. Performing motorcycle maintenance can be dangerous so please take the proper precautions when attempting to perform your own service work. If you do not have the proper tools or mechanical ability to do this type of work it is best left to the professionals at your BMW Service Center."
 
The disclaimer is there so I do not get sued by the person who follows my directions wrong. It literally is on any instructional video or directions. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion of warranty.
 
This type of attack on consumers has been ongoing in the farm implement world. Right to repair (rtr) legislation is in process in many states and countries. Here's a legislative summary.

www.farm-equipment.com

ONGOING COVERAGE: Right-to-Repair Impact on Dealers, Deere, Other OEMs

In the 2024 Canadian budget published April 16, the government announced plans to review and possibly amend the Copyright Modernization Act in order to introduce right to repair legislation, according to a blog by Canadian technology, copyright, privacy and AI lawyer Barry Sookman.
www.farm-equipment.com
 
The rtr battle started with OEMs claiming they still owned the software/code thru copyright laws and thus denied access, even though the implement was bought and paid for.
 
LCGS said:
So since they already denied stators, and cam and followers, how does that work?

You rode your bike wrong?

This is just another bullet in their gun to not own up, and cover bad parts. And a bunch or Service work for the dealers.

Again, not a Jim or a Brad thing at all. I am happy these guys contribute to the community and I have bought, and used JVB DVD on my 15 RT when I bought it.

Boxflyer gives us those videos for free, and he is a very concise, and has the best attention to detail of anyone I have ever meet.

It is BMW doing this and not a thing us as consumers can do about it. You can campaign to BMW NA but they are not giving anything away, even for proven defective parts.

Now they are keeping secrets on repair of something you own. Not that there is not information to do your own work, but will BMW accept that you could with only 3rd party information? That is my point you are boxed into a corner for 36,000 or 3 years. After that you can keep it with any information you have available.

And this is the disclaimer:
"Caution: Although every effort was made to ensure the accuracy of the information contained in this DVD it was primarily designed to enhance your knowledge of the BMW R1200 "Wethead" series motorcycle. As such, it is not meant to replace the maintenance manual or to supply complete information about each procedure covered. Any damage done to a motorcycle or personal injury resulting from the use of the DVD is solely the responsibility of the user and not the maker or seller of the DVD. Please use the DVD as a reference only. Performing motorcycle maintenance can be dangerous so please take the proper precautions when attempting to perform your own service work. If you do not have the proper tools or mechanical ability to do this type of work it is best left to the professionals at your BMW Service Center."
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Okay.
 
SandRdr said:
This type of attack on consumers has been ongoing in the farm implement world. Right to repair (rtr) legislation is in process in many states and countries. Here's a legislative summary.

www.farm-equipment.com

ONGOING COVERAGE: Right-to-Repair Impact on Dealers, Deere, Other OEMs

In the 2024 Canadian budget published April 16, the government announced plans to review and possibly amend the Copyright Modernization Act in order to introduce right to repair legislation, according to a blog by Canadian technology, copyright, privacy and AI lawyer Barry Sookman.
www.farm-equipment.com
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Yep this is where I first heard of it happening. Was it John Deer that refused to release repair data way back when?
 
LCGS said:
Yep this is where I first heard of it happening. Was it John Deer that refused to release repair data way back when?
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Iirc it was Deere that denied access to the software. With complex farm equipment, everything is controlled by software. Deere's claim was that the code was protected by copyright laws.
 
JimVonBaden said:
The disclaimer is there so I do not get sued by the person who follows my directions wrong. It literally is on any instructional video or directions. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion of warranty.
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Well yes it is.

You disclaim that your information may or may not be correct and if a customer follows that, you say they are on their own.

What is a Dealer going to say to the self serviced owner with your DVD in their hand?

Same as you, they are going to throw out their own Disclaimer and then what? Is a owner going to sue BMW NA for not honoring warranty work?

It is NOT YOU Jim. It is BMW for sure. I know you do what you can and do it well, I am a paying customer of JVB Productions.

I just do not want people to think on a new motor, with many differences to the 1250, that a Third Party DVD is going to hold weight in a warranty claim.

New paralever, new transmission location and drive line change, I believe the cylinders have shifted in position to be more parallel, and the frame has changed to lighten it, and still wondering if the 1250 timing tools will work?

And it is a BRAND New 1st year production so anything can change once it is in the wild. How will one know if you don't have a update able DVD?

I just think it is a shame that you pay 28,000 bucks or so, and then can not perform your own work, because the vendor withholds the information, and will not release it to the paying customer!

This is since the 1250 came out as a few DVDs got out. I have seen No one start, or mention any kind of consumer protection action against BMW NA. As long as people pay money for new toys and not fight for your RR, they will continue on their merry way.

I will always vote with my wallet and is why I wont buy a new bike from BMW. I wanted a R18, nope, I would love a new 1300 before I die since it is lighter since the frame revamp on it. But who wants to own something that there is no information from the manufacturer to work on it. Yet a dealer has that and hold you hostage for them only to work on the bike @ 110.00 an hour.
 
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