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Braking myths.

Amos Malone said:
It's a bit annoying sometimes when F9 does videos like this under limited circumstances.
Now some people (specially motorcycle riding noobs, who do not understand the techniques of safe braking, and/or lack the knowledge/experience required to avoid circumstances where they need emergency braking) will now be convinced that they need to deactivate or remove ABS to increase their safety.
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Ryan means we'll, but often has erroneous info in his videos. His followers are disturbingly loyal. I've seen 20 minute videos posted and there's hundreds of commenters already praising him and the video has only been up a couple minutes. Literally impossible that anyone watched the video yet, they're just queueing up to see who gets to praise him first. It's weird and cult-like. With the vast majority of his followers constantly repeating "omg, this production quality!", "should be on Netflix!" and "Ryan is the YouTuber we didn't know we needed" over and over and over, I sometimes wonder if he isn't using bots to grow his channel.

Regardless, the government mandating ABS on motorcycles is simply bureaucracy. I seriously doubt anyone in these regulatory commissions have a deep, personal understanding of the issues and actually riding dynamics at hand, rather they're just happy to be "implementing new safety measures" because that's good sounding stuff for PR.

ABS gets messy on two wheels real quick. Computer algorithms work really well in controlled/controllable environments, not so much on a leaning, slip steering vehicle that requires tons of nuance to operate. Algorithms don't get nuance.
 
Shinyribs said:
Ryan means we'll, but often has erroneous info in his videos. His followers are disturbingly loyal. I've seen 20 minute videos posted and there's hundreds of commenters already praising him and the video has only been up a couple minutes. Literally impossible that anyone watched the video yet, they're just queueing up to see who gets to praise him first. It's weird and cult-like. With the vast majority of his followers constantly repeating "omg, this production quality!", "should be on Netflix!" and "Ryan is the YouTuber we didn't know we needed" over and over and over, I sometimes wonder if he isn't using bots to grow his channel.

Regardless, the government mandating ABS on motorcycles is simply bureaucracy. I seriously doubt anyone in these regulatory commissions have a deep, personal understanding of the issues and actually riding dynamics at hand, rather they're just happy to be "implementing new safety measures" because that's good sounding stuff for PR.

ABS gets messy on two wheels real quick. Computer algorithms work really well in controlled/controllable environments, not so much on a leaning, slip steering vehicle that requires tons of nuance to operate. Algorithms don't get nuance.
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I'm not an F9 fan and sometimes he posts crap but I thought he did a good job on this video.

As for ABS, some people think it's a wonderful device that will "save" them while others hate it. I prefer to try to understand it along with its benefits as well as its limitations.
 
Shinyribs said:
Man, that's a great idea. I'd pay extra for that in a heartbeat.

As long as it's a warning system, not something that will take control of my steering or brakes away from me.
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I envision a star trek light interface that allerts the rider in the easiest least distracting way...to ease up and be aware. But no mechanical or ecm overides from the processing unit. Much like the simple snowflake icon on modern cars...suggesting ice potential. Just mere lights to say which side of the rd and a rough distance.
 
klaviator said:
I'm not an F9 fan and sometimes he posts crap but I thought he did a good job on this video.

As for ABS, some people think it's a wonderful device that will "save" them while others hate it. I prefer to try to understand it along with its benefits as well as its limitations.
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For noobs the benefits are immense. Safer braking under as good as all circumstances. For better more experienced riders (and depending on the quality of the ABS system (because they are not all the same)) it depends on rider and circumstances.
I prefer to look at ABS as a tool in my riding arsenal. Knowing how the tool works, how to use it and how not to use it makes me a better rider.
 
Coincidentally F9 posted a video about a Shoei helmet with a HUD. He was basically saying it’s a precursor to the transition into obstacle detection like is so common in cars now. Maybe we will get the thermal imaging eventually.
 
Like I said before, I have zero experience with ABS on motorcycles. However on track in cars I welcome it. I view it as a safety net that if I touch I know I went just a little too hard on the brakes. Ideally I will be right on the threshold without it intervening. Leaning on it continuously isn’t the fastest way around the track.

On a bike I’d imagine it would work similarly by allowing me to transfer the weight to the front tire and stuff it into the pavement before really getting into the brakes hard. Having the ABS watching over me in case I miscalculate and go past the available traction doesn’t seem like a bad thing. In my mind it seems like having that safety net would allow me to get to the threshold more quickly and really minimize the stopping distance. Ideally at least…
 
DJ_MI said:
Like I said before, I have zero experience with ABS on motorcycles. However on track in cars I welcome it. I view it as a safety net that if I touch I know I went just a little too hard on the brakes. Ideally I will be right on the threshold without it intervening. Leaning on it continuously isn’t the fastest way around the track.

On a bike I’d imagine it would work similarly by allowing me to transfer the weight to the front tire and stuff it into the pavement before really getting into the brakes hard. Having the ABS watching over me in case I miscalculate and go past the available traction doesn’t seem like a bad thing. In my mind it seems like having that safety net would allow me to get to the threshold more quickly and really minimize the stopping distance. Ideally at least…
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I think you are exactly right. Having ABS means you can push your braking right almost to the limits of traction without fear of going to far and crashing. Without ABS you probably need to leave more margin for error or risk loosing traction.
 
I really appreciate high qualty braking components. But abs with rubber brake lines is kinda questionable when the wife's elite clone has a steel braided line for $1000 shipped...ha ha the emission exhaust line did melt though.... but the brakes work great.
 
Gwiz said:
[UWSL]Side-forces can be stopping, acceleration or turning...OR a combination...but when you combine two side-forces (stopping and turning or turning and acceleration), they have to SHARE the total available traction...add one, you must reduce the other if you're at the limit.[/UWSL]
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You are in control of 100% of the available traction and you can allocate it however you wish. Choose wisely! :lol2
 
Haha jeez I hit a culvert on my 1st bike 34 yrs ago . The gs750l was ridden on trails. 35mph rd and the on coming car was completely in my lane. I scrubbed it down to about 10mph before heading offroad...cussing!
 
Soggy Biscuit said:
How else am I going to squid out and justify my awful stopping skills after smashing a mirror on a cager's vehicle? :drink
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:lol2 I’ve never smashed a mirror and certainly never would but, man oh man, I want to sometimes. :hide
 
ABS?
It needs mentioning straight away that in the case of cars trucks etc abs can control available grip to a wheel on the inside of a tight turn etc under braking and technically feather the braking to the wheel that's loosing grip/ traction side to side corner to corner which is on the face of it a safety feature generally.
A talented driver used to the car could probably out perform the ABS on a good dry track, but once the conditions start to deteriorate and every last bit of grip is needed the ABS makes some inroads. But in the extremes super heavy rain snow ice etc classic ABS starts to loose out and only with modern electronic control can compromises be made in these extreme conditions and some cars have settings for such weather which are COMPROMISES.
ABS on bikes, Principle is the same and again its a good general safety feature which much of the time is of benefit rather than a hindrance, Yet again the Talented rider could out perform ABS in good conditions and in typical wet the bike like the car probably benefits from ABS in layman hands and many situations.
If a bike has ABS its used the sting of original buying a bike with it will have been paid for much of it by the original owner and so its a good thing to have if its there, and if you want to learn to feel the braking and improve your skill you can turn it off or turn it on when its wet or you are lazy.
It works both cars and bikes and if its there ok, but is it a deal breaker if its not?
Well that depends on your perspective and rider ability it could be you just dont need it, and its not magic the laws of physics still apply and that diesel spill will still make things very exiting if you hit it just the same. For me If its there Ok use it, but if it is or not. practice practice and practice some more your braking Not realy va substitute for that bikes are a lot about feel and ok science is great but natural talent should never be underestimated.

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I would ride an RE 350 till the end of the world. Abs ha no meaing in the middle desert or swamp.. jeez have to buy clones to get kickstart.while yapping over abs. Oh well makes my day. At least there is enthuusiam.

Now convince me a phone mount is needed. Only done sticky notes on the klr. 50 bikes..no abs and never gps. How the heck did I survive!.... third eye thermal imaging. Scooters really cheat this meas but I need pegs not plastic foot places!
 
Ha funny thought if we all rode shinkos and royal enfields..best wishes ohmies!! I need a brake!!!
 
DJ_MI said:
:lol2 I’ve never smashed a mirror and certainly never would but, man oh man, I want to sometimes. :hide
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There was a ton of commotion and avoidance maneuvers going on ahead of me on the last leg to work. Turned out being some clueless driver going 20mph under the limit, driving in both lanes, coming to a complete stop 200 or so feet before the traffic lights, and failing to get his stupid ass moving once the light turned green. No room on the right to pass so I went on his left with what wasn't covered in the left lane. Dude was getting honked at by everybody. Guy deserved to have fountain drinks thrown on his windshield.
 
So I did a little test last night braking from 30-0 on seal coated asphalt using just the front, just the rear and then both together. The results weren’t surprising. I measured the stopping distance using the parking lot lines so the width of the parking spaces.
Rear only: 12 spaces
Front only: 8 spaces
Front and Rear: 7 spaces

Not scientific exactly but the results are obvious enough that any testing variance wouldn’t really change the obvious results.
 
DJ_MI said:
So I did a little test last night braking from 30-0 on seal coated asphalt using just the front, just the rear and then both together. The results weren’t surprising. I measured the stopping distance using the parking lot lines so the width of the parking spaces.
Rear only: 12 spaces
Front only: 8 spaces
Front and Rear: 7 spaces

Not scientific exactly but the results are obvious enough that any testing variance wouldn’t really change the obvious results.
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Those are about what I would expect from a dual sport bike. I you were on a KLX300SM with a bigger front brake and stickier tires you would probably see little or no difference between front only and both brakes. The usefullness of the rear brake varies depending on the type of bike as well as the road surface. If you had been on dirt or gravel the both brakes would have made more of a difference compared to just the front.
 
klaviator said:
Those are about what I would expect from a dual sport bike. I you were on a KLX300SM with a bigger front brake and stickier tires you would probably see little or no difference between front only and both brakes. The usefullness of the rear brake varies depending on the type of bike as well as the road surface. If you had been on dirt or gravel the both brakes would have made more of a difference compared to just the front.
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I forgot to mention the important little tidbit that it was wet conditions! :lol2
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